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Thread: How to become a Buddha in 5 weeks... or: THE EDU THREAD

  1. #1

    Default How to become a Buddha in 5 weeks... or: THE EDU THREAD

    Hi fellows I felt the need of more order in the EDU discussion, so I started this new thread.


    APER'S EDU

    1) Unit Size : 10 bodyguards ; 20 cavalry, archers (40 for some nations) ; 40 legionarii, ensiferi, pilani/gaesati, slingers ;
    60 Hoplitai (20 for Romans), skirmishers (20 for Romans), Pezhetairoi, lancearii, spatharii

    2) Unit Mass : Skirmishers, Missile Infantry = 1+(0.005xMorale) ; Melee Infantry = 1+(0.01xMorale) ;
    Hoplitai, Legionarii = 1+(0.02xMorale) ; Pezhetairoi = 1+(0.04xMorale)

    3) Soldier Radius : 0.4 - (Morale/100) FOR LEGIONARII, PEZHETAIROI, HOPLITAI ONLY!!!

    4) Formation : Hoplitai = 0.8, 0.8, 1.6, 1.6, 5 ; piercing weapons infantry = 1, 2, 2, 4, 4 (pezhetairoi = 1.3, 1, 2.6, 2, 6);
    slashing weapons infantry = 1.3, 2.6, 2.6, 5.2, 5 ; heavy cavalry, skirmishers = 1.6, 3.2, 3.2, 6.4, 4 ; light cavalry = 2, 4, 4, 8, 4

    5) Nation specific changes to unit numbers :

    -All horse units of Apuli, Messapi and Gauls + Tarantinoi + Hippeis Tarantinoi + Hipparchoi Tarantinoi + Equites Numides + Equites Campani
    + Equites Primores Campani need to have slightly more men from others due to the fact they proportionally had many horse units in the army.
    Changes need to be minor in order to prevent those factions to steamrole the campaign map (+2 or +4).
    - Sagittarii Ligures, Sagittarii Rhaeti, Sagittarii Mauri and Sagittarii Sardi need to have much higher unit numbers then currently suggested
    due to the fact there were many in numbers while other italics didn't have as much archery. I would give Sagittarii Sardi and Sagittarii Mauri 44,
    the other two units 36 soldiers (medium unit setting written in edu).
    - All Carpentarii units need to have their soldier numbers lowered. Non Gallic Carpentarii (Veneti, Sabini, Etrusci, etc.)
    units need to have 6 unit number. Gallic Carpentarii need to have 12 unit number. This to minimize the problems chariots cause in the game.

    6) Secondary HPs : all +5 ; peasant -1, heroic +1 ; Pezhetairoi, Hoplitai -1, artillery -1 ; cavalry +2 (AP lances/bow +3) ;
    Balearic, Kretan, Rhodian +2 ; archers, slingers, Equites Ferentarii, Roman Legionaries +1

    7) Lethality : (Attack Mod + Morale)/100

    8) Delay : Delay Mod - Morale

    9) Attack : (Attack Mod + Morale)/2

    10)Ground values from M2TW PI
    Negative groundvalues for the hoplites and phalang in scrub and forest. For example :
    Hoplites: stat_ground -2, 0, -4, 0 ; Phalang: stat_ground -3, 0, -5, 0
    Mount effect horse -2 or -1 for units that aren't adept to fighting mounted units. Ferentarii of all kinds would for example suit here.


    Morale Level (ML) :

    1-6 Morale = Peasants (psiloi = missile infantry)

    7-11 Morale = Average (ferentarii, lanceari, spatharii, ferentarii equites)

    12-15 Morale = Superior(ensiferi, pilani/gaesati, equites)

    16-18 Morale = Elite (phalangitai, legionarii, equites primores/custodes)

    19-20 Morale = Heroes (Spartiatai, Gaesatae)


    MELEE

    - WEAPON ATTACK MOD, CHARGE MOD / DELAY MOD ; OTHER

    - heavy axe: 20,x1 / 30 ; AP

    - light axe: 18,x0.5 / 29

    - long sword: 16,x0.5 / 27

    - curved sword 14,x0.25 / 28 ; Cavalry: x0.5 CHARGE MOD

    - short sword: 12,x0.25 / 26 ; Romans : x0.5 CHARGE MOD

    - lance 10,x3 / 25 ; AP if 2H

    - Sarissa: 8,0 / 24 ; light_spear, long_pike, frighten_nearby_enemy

    - Dory: 6,x1 / 23 ; horse +4, frighten_mounted

    - spear: 4,x1 / 22 ; horse +4

    - dagger: 2,1 / 21


    MISSILE

    - WEAPON ATTACK, RANGE

    - Wooden Bow : 1, 100+(2xMorale)

    - Composite Bow : 2, 100+(4xMorale)

    - Sling : 3, 100+(5xMorale)

    - Heavy Jav : 5, 40+(Morale) ; metallic : AP, 10+(Morale)

    - Light Jav : 4, 50+(Morale) ; metallic : AP, 20+(Morale)

    P.S. : peasant -1, heroic +1 ATTACK


    DEFENCES

    Defence Value = 1/2 Morale Value
    All units starts with 2 stamina (very_hardy) ; professionals, cavalry +1 additional stamina points vs. equipment mali


    - greaves +1 ARM each

    - arm protections +1 DEF each

    - leather or sinew head protections +1 ARM

    - metal helmet +2 ARM; with cheekpieces +3 ARM

    - perizoma +1 DEF

    - metal breast plate +1 DEF


    - leather short +1 ARM

    - bronze squared +1 ARM

    - linotorax +2 ARM

    - leather +2 ARM

    - reinforced linotorax +3 ARM

    - bronze triple disc +3 ARM

    - lamellar +4 ARM

    - short bronze plate +4 ARM ; -1 STA

    - iron-mail +5 ARM

    - bronze plate +5 ARM ; -1 STA


    - buckler +1 SHI ; +2 DEF

    - small round +1 SHI ; +3 DEF

    - small Aspis +2 SHI ; +1 DEF (PEZHETAIROI's +3 ; +0 DEF)

    - Thureos +3 SHI ; +1 DEF ; -1 STA

    - Samnite Scutum +4 SHI ; +0 DEF ; -1 STA

    - Aspis +5 SHI ; -2 DEF ; -1 STA (SHIELD-WALL Aspis +8 SHI ; -3 DEF ; -1 STA)

    - Scutum +5 SHI ; -1 DEF ; -1 STA


    LIST OF CHANGES: a lot of things, check the new model carefully and then ask for clarifications

    CURRENT UNITS FOR TESTING VERSION : 2
    Last edited by Aper; January 21, 2009 at 04:14 PM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: How to become a Buddha in 5 weeks... or: THE EDU THREAD

    It's not a bad process to "compile" things from a merely complicate structure to a simplified one

    Good luck on this!
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    Default Re: How to become a Buddha in 5 weeks... or: THE EDU THREAD

    Excellent Aper - a new wind is blowing in ancient Italy for sure. Thanx friend million times for your work! If I'll be able to I'll comment more tomorrow after I finish job. I feel mucho better now for sure to see things progressing...
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  4. #4

    Default Re: How to become a Buddha in 5 weeks... or: THE EDU THREAD

    Attachment 28037GREAT NEWS GUYS!!! I have done many good actions so Mistress Luck kissed me this evening! I'm saying that I have done in no time a total mess... ehm, "overhaul" of the "DEFENCES" part of the model because:

    1) Missiles were utterly useless, and I can't raise their attack or add "AP" attribute because Hoplitai got offended and to punish me tried AGAIN (!) to outflank Ensiferi like Headless Chickens usually do.
    2) Battles were LOOOONG, even longer than EB battles.

    BUT, waay better than my best hopes, I got the balance with little effort, so I can release some units to test as promised, everything should be fine now (...hopefully )

    I have also nerfed a bit the Kopis and empowered the Future of Warfare (the longsword) : Keltoi should be less useless now (it's not my fault if that dumbass people didn't like armors! )

    I'll post tomorrow the list of change because now I have to sleep or die.
    IMPORTANT NOTES:
    1)the low morale is an experiment, if you don't like it, just double the value.
    2) because gallic moustaches are so cute, I made Pilani and Gaesatae very strong, they can be nerfed a bit if they are excessive.
    3) Spartans should brutally rape everyone, but it's simply because of their high morale=> high stats, and heavy outfit, I didn't them so strong intentionally!!! I'm not a 300 fanboy!!! :sparta: (...well, actually I am...)
    Last edited by Aper; January 21, 2009 at 10:46 AM.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: How to become a Buddha in 5 weeks... or: THE EDU THREAD

    Sounds good. Did you consider, or are you going to consider Atheno's hints?

    Keltoi should be less useless now (it's not my fault if that dumbass people didn't like armors!
    I think, the Celts in the whole should have always a slight better def skill and quite good attack values, compared to the other folks.
    This will make up a bit the low armour values of them, and surely adds a portion realism, as we know, Celts weren't in all cases inferior to Romans or Italics or Greeks or Poeni.
    #Anthropocene #not just Global Warming but Global Disaster, NASA #Deforestation #Plastic Emission #The Blob #Uninhabitable Earth #Savest Place On Earth #AMOC #ICAN #MIT study "Falsehoods Win" #Engineers of Chaos
    #"there can be no doubt about it: the enemy stands on the Right!" 1922, by Joseph Wirth.
    Rightwingers, like in the past the epitome of incompetence, except for evilness where they own the mastership.
    Iirc., already 2013 i spoke of "Renaissance of Fascism", it was accurate.
    #"Humanity is in ‘final exam’ as to whether or not it qualifies for continuance in universe." Buckminster Fuller
    Any chance for this exam? Very low, the established Anthropocentrism destroys the basis of existence.
    #My Modding #The Witcher 3: Lore Friendly Tweaks (LFT)
    #End, A diary of the Third World War (A.-A. Guha, 1983) - now, it started on 24th February 2022.

  6. #6

    Default Re: How to become a Buddha in 5 weeks... or: THE EDU THREAD

    Quote Originally Posted by DaVinci View Post
    Sounds good. Did you consider, or are you going to consider Atheno's hints?
    Oh sure I'll do! I didn't have the time /sheer force of will up to now, but I'll consider his suggestion as soon as I can.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaVinci View Post
    I think, the Celts in the whole should have always a slight better def skill and quite good attack values, compared to the other folks.
    This will make up a bit the low armour values of them, and surely adds a portion realism, as we know, Celts weren't in all cases inferior to Romans or Italics or Greeks or Poeni.
    Surely we have to think some way to balance them (if it's needed: I didn't tested them enough) but, hey, that guys are really light! Probably the lightest line infantry in game... well stop talking, I'll do some tests to have some evidence to work on.
    Last edited by Aper; January 21, 2009 at 10:50 AM.

  7. #7

    Default Re: How to become a Buddha in 5 weeks... or: THE EDU THREAD

    FIRST POST UPDATED.

    NEXT NEWS AT FIRST TOMORROW EVENING.


  8. #8
    Hister's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: How to become a Buddha in 5 weeks... or: THE EDU THREAD

    Aper, I tested your first test units and the battles are superb now. Feels just right. Mercenarii gaesatae might be overpowered but other units are simply superb in how they play out. Thank you so much!!! Now I'll try your newest version to see if it's even better
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    Default Re: How to become a Buddha in 5 weeks... or: THE EDU THREAD

    The second version is indeed better - it's perfectly balanced and outcomes are superb. Great job Aper! You need also to make a couple of less elite units to see how they perform. My guts are telling me you did it this time Aper - this model is very very good.

    Erm, I0m wondering where can I disable completely the guard mode for units. Anyone knows?
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  10. #10

    Default Re: How to become a Buddha in 5 weeks... or: THE EDU THREAD

    First post updated.
    Added some useful suggestions from Athenagoras and Hister. Thanx guys!

    @ Athenagoras:
    Thank you very much for that summary of the stats that have influence on the AI! Now, when I'll have problems I'll have a valuable resource to look into!
    But 1 minor thing was incorrect, according to a lot of tests I did on the matter: unit size actually seems to encourage the AI to charge, it was 1 of the first fix I applied to my hoplites.

    When I find time I'll upload a couple of low tier units for comparisons...
    (my book of Etruscology looks me bad: he want to be studied! I fear I cannot tell to the professor of my PI campaign as Thyrrenoi...)

    EDIT: latest test was Lancearii Hirpini, one of the best lancearii unit, against average gallic spatharii, 240 vs. 240: the outcomes told me spatharii are slightly superior (victorious, but many many casualties), is that acceptable or should I lower the numbers of Lancearii Hirpini?
    One thing I appreciated much is that the nerfed javelins are still very effective against unarmored foes...I didn't hope so
    Last edited by Aper; January 21, 2009 at 02:24 PM.

  11. #11
    Athenogoras's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: How to become a Buddha in 5 weeks... or: THE EDU THREAD

    You are correct Aper. Number of soldiers influence behaviour. I did these test with Chivalry with different system(1-2 attack and big defence, that could be the reason). Updated post accordingly. Also added stat_ground values and mountbonus.
    I also added secondary weapon as unimportant for AI-behaviour.(atleast for non_skirmish infantry - ensiferni,phalanx). Can you confirm this.
    Last edited by Athenogoras; January 21, 2009 at 02:51 PM.

  12. #12

    Default Re: How to become a Buddha in 5 weeks... or: THE EDU THREAD

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenogoras View Post
    You are correct Aper. Number of soldiers influence behaviour. I did these test with Chivalry with different system(1-2 attack and big defence, that could be the reason). Updated post accordingly. Also added stat_ground values and mountbonus.
    I also added secondary weapon as unimportant for AI-behaviour.(atleast for non_skirmish infantry - ensiferni,phalanx). Can you confirm this.
    :hmmm: Dunno about phalanxes (didn't tested much up to now), about Ensiferi, if the primary is ranged both are considered in AI behaviour, not only the attack but the AP attribute too, because in my latest tests the Hoplitai I was fighting against began to flank after I raised the attack of the javelins of my Ensiferi, and, after I lowered the value again and added AP attribute, I was quite shocked to see them keep flanking! They returned to their usual behaviour only when I came back to the initial attack value with no AP (or lower attack with AP).

    Can I ask you to re-post your suggestions in this thread? I think it should be very useful to avoid the loss/overlook of important infos. Thanx again!
    Last edited by Aper; January 21, 2009 at 03:17 PM.

  13. #13
    Athenogoras's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: How to become a Buddha in 5 weeks... or: THE EDU THREAD

    OK. Needs more testing.
    Advice: Keep stat_ground 0,0,0,0
    Its sometimes hard to know what terrain is which. Maybe their behaviour changed because they were on different terrain.
    Test with more than 1 unit. You can begin with 1 to see tendency, than expand to 4-5(of the same kind) for better results.

    Re-posted from another thread:

    How fast do you want the battles to be. RTRPE-slow? Vanillafast? In between? Values that make battles fast: High attackskill, low defence skill, low armour and shield, low timedelay, high lethality. The opposite for slow.

    Things that influence AI behaviour on battlefield
    1. Armourupgrades(not a problem in this mod) and battledifficulty(m/h/vh) and hitpoints
    2. Experience
    3. Attackskill and armour
    4. Number of soldiers
    5. Defenceskill and shield
    6. Stat-ground values
    6. Lethality(seems to depend on the system, with higher attack to defenceratios little difference. With lower attack-higherdefence more difference.
    (various attributes:spear, phalanx, shortpike, mountbonus)

    I suspect this is the same values which determine autocalc. That is high attack and armour beats high defence and shield.

    Things that do not change AI-behaviour but change battleoutcome
    1. Timedelay between attacks
    2. Attackvalue of secondary weapon. This is pretty important. For example: Give ensiferni/phalanx 30 pila/pike-attack and 1 sword/sword-attack. They will then act on primary weapon and attack frontal. Give 1 primary and 30 secondary and they will try to avoid combat and flank. My suspicion is this also influence autocalc(AI only counts primary weaponattack) but this is not tested. It might therefore be good if the difference between primary/secondary weapons is not to great(as in my examples) in order not to fool the AI.
    Last edited by Athenogoras; January 21, 2009 at 03:20 PM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: How to become a Buddha in 5 weeks... or: THE EDU THREAD

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenogoras View Post
    OK. Needs more testing.
    Advice: Keep stat_ground 0,0,0,0
    Its sometimes hard to know what terrain is which. Maybe their behaviour changed because they were on different terrain.
    Test with more than 1 unit. You can begin with 1 to see tendency, than expand to 4-5(of the same kind) for better results.
    I'll do that!

    EDIT: edited the first post, 2 new units: Spatharii Galli and Lancearii Hirpini ; not much tested, I'll appreciate very much the feedback of you guys about them, thx
    Last edited by Aper; January 21, 2009 at 03:38 PM.

  15. #15
    Athenogoras's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: How to become a Buddha in 5 weeks... or: THE EDU THREAD

    They seem to look fine, but I find it confusing with those different delay and lethality values. I think if I would create an EDU from scratch I would probably set all infantry to "0,1" and mimic different weapons and skill and length of battle with attack and defenceskill. It would be easier for the player too.

  16. #16

    Default Re: How to become a Buddha in 5 weeks... or: THE EDU THREAD

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenogoras View Post
    They seem to look fine, but I find it confusing with those different delay and lethality values. I think if I would create an EDU from scratch I would probably set all infantry to "0,1" and mimic different weapons and skill and length of battle with attack and defenceskill. It would be easier for the player too.
    Well, probably you are very right (I learnt it in months of testing)...
    but my collaboration with the PI team started with a Lethality Mini-Mod! Then, I added delay values to properly balance Hoplitai, and finally it evolved in the current EDU model, so...we can say lethality and delay are the core of the system!

  17. #17

    Default Re: How to become a Buddha in 5 weeks... or: THE EDU THREAD

    Ok guys now I really have to study, I can work on the EDU only 1 hour/day...

    BUT, since the model seems to work, everyone who want to test can simply choose some units he like, apply the changes and see what happens!

    I'll come back to work on 12/2, not before... this is my best, sry

  18. #18
    Hister's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: How to become a Buddha in 5 weeks... or: THE EDU THREAD

    Hey, I've tried second version of testing units and they are performing perfectly. This is it Aper - this model is working as it should. The battle ration between those testing units is very well balanced. I will have to check archers and slingers to see if they are any good.

    Now I need someone to tell me where can I totally disable guardmode for all units. Anyone?

    I'll be applying the model to edu. I hope somebody else will help me applying it. Any volunteers?
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  19. #19

    Default Re: How to become a Buddha in 5 weeks... or: THE EDU THREAD

    Missile units should be easier to balance than melee, they should cause no problem... if they do, feel free to modify them as you want!

    regardind applying the values to the EDU...
    ...
    HELP HIM YOU FOOLS!!!!

  20. #20
    Athenogoras's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: How to become a Buddha in 5 weeks... or: THE EDU THREAD

    Now I need someone to tell me where can I totally disable guardmode for all units. Anyone?
    Here is a typical block in Sinuhets file

    ;; second spearmen line
    begin_block 2
    min_units 5
    max_units 6
    unit_type non_phalanx_spear 1.0
    default_melee_state defend
    unit_density close
    block_formation line
    block_relative_pos 1 0.0 -15.0
    inter_unit_spacing 0.3
    priority 1.0
    end_block
    Change it to this
    ;; second spearmen line
    begin_block 2
    min_units 5
    max_units 6
    unit_type non_phalanx_spear 1.0
    default_melee_state engage_at_will
    unit_density close
    block_formation line
    block_relative_pos 1 0.0 -15.0
    inter_unit_spacing 0.3
    priority 1.0
    end_block

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