Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus Agelastus/Crassus

[Hesus de bodemloze]

The only thing we can do with the fleet is disbanding them and put them to use as infantry manipels (occ :disband fleet and only recruit 2 ally infanterie).

Next thing on the list will be sending a Diplomat. I suggest we send the diplomat to the Koinon Hellenon to arrange a truce and trade rights.

[Snowball]

OOC: Ive been reading the imperator forum, and once we hit end turn, we wont have money for about, 60 turns! we have to do fighting, conquering etc in that time, there simply isnt enough men, everything ive read, and everyone ive talked to all say "GET AS MANY MEN AS POSSIBLE!"

[Xavier Dragnesi]

Salve Senators, I am dropping by Rome on my way south with the northern legion. After much discussion and plan, my colleague and I have decided to ask for the following troops to be paid for by the Treasury:

3 units of Italici hoplites
2 units of Velites
1 unit of funditores

I have already stated my view to my colleague that this amount of troops may be a little too much, but feel free to allow more if you all agree to it. Whatever the amount, troops must be given. I agree, we have enough to fight of Pyrrhus, but after Pyrrhus, then what? By then, our economic state will be absolutely poor, and since we won't be able to build anything at that point, the only way we can hope to regain the money, is by conquest. And to conquer, you must have the troops to do so.
Our monetary decrease is mostly due to the amount of troops we have, I know. But there are only two ways to solve this problem. Either we disband the legions, which we cannot do at any cost, or we must capture more settlements so that all that the pay for the soldiers can be collected from more areas, and therefore money loss reduced. But to apply the second option, we need troops to capture more settlements in the first place!
Senators, much as I dislike needless war and pointless expansion, I cannot help but implore you that at this time, there is no other alternative but to recruit, a few, if not more, troops so that we can ensure that the future of the Republic will be both economically and militarily secure.

[Dayman]

OOC: And I've heard get as many buildings in as possible, if you're good enough to take out Epirus with the two consular armies. I did it, I don't see why we can't.

Tired of hearing the short sighted and foolish Senators debate things they did not understand, Flavus spoke up again.

"Senators, you argue over things you do not understand. I don't even believe you were awake for my report. You know, before I enrolled in the Senate after my tribunate, I was a trader, of all things. I understand the flow of the economies like the back of my hand, my plan will help us recover from this war intact.

You do not understand, we will be out of money soon, no matter what we do. Not until the spoils and plunder from the towns allied to the Greeks come into Rome will we be able to pay off debts. Bankruptcy and debt are two different things. Bankruptcy is not in the question, however, debt is. Debt that will increase at least 5,000 denarii a season. If we build roads and an academy and a market, things will look up. A unit each city of militia will aid in defending our borders and forts while the soldiers are gone. The fleet will take the war to Epirus! Do not simply disband the fleet, that is a waste."

"Consul Ahenobarbus, if we do that we cannot afford the improve our infrastructure before we run out of money. You have your consular army, make do with what you have on your own. Or does the Consul fear he is not able to do with what he has been generously given?"

[Snowball]

Listen to the Consul quaestor! Our survival is at stake.

As much as you seem to know of economics, you understand not the reality of the situation, the reality is as the Consul says, we need troops to fight and conquer.

[Dayman]

"And four legions and four alae are not enough? Is the might of the Greeks that terrible? Senator, Consul Crassus has already put them on the defensive!"

[Xavier Dragnesi]

"Consul Ahenobarbus, if we do that we cannot afford the improve our infrastructure before we run out of money. You have your consular army, make do with what you have on your own. Or does the Consul fear he is not able to do with what he has been generously given?"

Can we take cities with infrastructure, may I ask? Will infrastructure be able to replace pay in keeping the soldiers happy? I doubt any infrastructure built will be able to supply a readily available economic source in the next few seasons. I am sure I can do with what has been given to me, but what about future consuls? How will they fight other wars when two legions, who will steadily get further and further depleted, are all they have to combat mighty nations like Carthage or the Koinon Hellenon? We must not think only to the economic future, but the future survival of the Republic as a whole.

[Hesus de bodemloze]

Quintus speaks : I am gething tired of this nonsense about recruiting or not recruiting troops, the only way we will get to a solution is to put up a vote on to recruit or not to recruit extra troops.

I suggest the censor puts up a motion and we vote on this mather for once and all.

combat mighty nations like Carthage or the Koinon Hellenon

I suggest sending a diplomat to the Koinon Hellenon to arange a truce.

[Dayman]

Can we take cities with infrastructure, may I ask? Will infrastructure be able to replace pay in keeping the soldiers happy? I doubt any infrastructure built will be able to supply a readily available economic source in the next few seasons. I am sure I can do with what has been given to me, but what about future consuls? How will they fight other wars when two legions, who will steadily get further and further depleted, are all they have to combat mighty nations like Carthage or the Koinon Hellenon? We must not think only to the economic future, but the future survival of the Republic as a whole.

"Can you defend Ancona without a wall or troops Consul? The pay required to keep the soldiers happy may be substituted by your success in leading men, as all Consuls should. The survival of the republic does not only rely on her levies, but also on the money those men generate when home and not at war. A quick end to this war while we spend our remaining money on infrastructure and ensuring our defenses. If the consuls do their jobs and defeat the enemies of Rome in glory, then we need not worry. Since the Senate deigns to remove the fleet, your job just got harder, since any crossing of the Adriatic will have to be through land, and not by sea."

[Gaius Julius Civilis]

Very well. If the consuls on the front line say that we need more men, then I concede.

[chaplain118]

Turnus rose from his seat. The senate was in a girdlock, and a compromise must be made.

I have here, a letter from Consul Crassus, and this is what he suggests we should do with our current treasury.

I think we should train troops now, while we have the money, and use them to plunder new lands and gain riches from our enemies. Obviously me and Ahenobarbus will be storming Tarentum as soon as we've whipped Pyrrhus into shape, but Corfinium is a bit too close for comfort for me as well.

Anyway, this plan is a lot better and quicker for getting us out. You might call it a gamble, but if we lose against Pyrrhus, there will be no republic to worry about the economy of anyway. And, we shan't. Not whilst I and Mars are on the side of Rome.

Now then, senators, we will be running out of money soon, our position in the south deems it necessary that we bolster our defenses, not through walls of wood or stone, but of valor and courage. In essence, senators, we need to levy more troops to both reinforce our legions, as well as to defend our cities.

Yes, I understand that we will have to pay these soldiers, but consider it an investment. With more men, we can take more cities, with more cities, we will slowly build up our economy.

As for our fleet, it is of no use. These ships are dwarved in size and power to those of the Carthaginian merchants and Greek marines. Let those men return to their lives rather than sitting in a dock, growing listless.

[Snowball]

Marcus looks at Falco, smiling. Such a fool...

[Hesus de bodemloze]

Quintus sits donw and thinks in his self : What a babbling set of old wives. This will go on for day' s.

[Valerius Tiberius]

Marcus Manlius rose up from his chair, after a long silence

Fellow Senators!
First of all excuse me for my long period of silence!
I want to congratulate the both Consuls, Crassus and Ahenobarbus, and wish them luck in their battles against the enemies and I pray that they may succeed!

Secondly, I wish to thank Senator Clarus very much for his brilliant proposal, which stopped needless talking and that made sure we undertook action!

I pray for a safe Roma soon and offer my help in any form there is!
I can help the Consuls in war with advice, lead armies myself, or anything you, Senators, think is appropriate!
Though I am most skilled in defeating Gauls at our Northern border, I assume these Greeks will fall as fast for Roman steel as others!

However, after hearing these debates over money for armies or money for buildings: I say the Consuls must be given every man they ask for, Pleb or Patriacian!

For they are the Consuls, and they can say, as persons being the closest to both the enemy and our army, how many men are needed to defeat Epirus, defeat the enemy and ensure the existence of Roma herself!!

And last, I heard something special a minute ago; Marcus Iulius Celsus, it is you who drew my attention!
You said that "We cannot defeat Phyrrus with men. Only with a good commander" .

I support you in this ofcourse, but a good commander cannot win without any troops too!
However, that is not the point I want to make, the point I want to make is the following:

Do you, O Senators, find the situation troubled enough to appoint a Dictator?

Let this question to you all, may be the end of my oratory!

[Elendil of Númenor]

Celsus spoke from his seat with clenched fists.

"When we will be begging for money from the gods, Conscript..." he paused on the next word, but found enough respect in himself to continue on as: "...Fathers, then I will ask you, has no one has warned you, that we will have no money if we levy more recruits? Will you not recognise your mistake, even when we will be selling the gold of our temples, and the ancient statues of our Houses just to get a few coins?" he looked at the marble sculpture that poor Falco almost knocked over some days ago. "Senators! Are your minds as empty as the Treasury is?! WE HAVE NO MONEY. We are bankrupt. And we want more men. More mouths to feed, more swords to pay."
He stood up.
"This is cowardice. We know that we can destroy Phyrrus's forces, thanks to two competent consuls who can work together and outmanoeuvre the Epeirots, even with an understrenght army. We must trust in the abilities of our generals and not try to overwhelm our enemies with men that we just cannot field!"

He sat down, still fuming. He knew he won't get any support. But one must try.

EDIT: OOC: Oops, I didn't see your post, Valerius... Anyway mine can still make sense.

[Snowball]

Marcus stoop up, talking directly to the last speaker.

You would risk our destruction, at the hands of your overconfidence, in the hopes we won`t get broke?

In other words, you would rather risk the end of this great Republic, than risk a few years of not having money?

You heard the Consul did you not? He is our military commander is he not? you would think your expertise on military matters was greater than his?

Dear senator! do you think the Consul speaks in jest when he says he needs more men!? Really!?

*Marcus calms down*

No senator, i believe the Consul to be realistic, and honorable enough not to let pride and overconfidence cloud his judgment, if he says he needs more men, he needs more men!

And denying him this, would be taunting the possibility of our destruction.

[Dayman]

"Senator Clarus, your words reek of hyperbole. Our situation is dire, yes, but Pyhrrus is on the defensive! We have the advantage. The Epirotes will be out of Italy by the next year. We can come out of this war with an economy in place to boom, and the infrastructure to support it, or we can levy yet more men and leave their farms untended for the year, making it harder to recover."

[Hesus de bodemloze]

Quintus raises again :

As i stated before we need to vote on this mather senators, we will never get clarification if we keep drown out over each other, we need to agree on this mather soon becous we are running out of time.

I don' t think we need more troops, we will run out of money soon having more troops means bringing up more pay for the soldiers. If thy notice we can' t pay them thy will desert the legion and we will be lost.

Keep the lilttle money whe have to support the troops we already have.

I ask you senators which soldier will fight if he will not receive a compensation for riscing his live? Will we senators take up swords and fight the enemies our self ? If our enemies notice our legions have deserted us thy will not hesitate to attack us. You have to ask your self this question senators, which enemy will spare us when our legions have deserted us, which enemy will fear us if no one appears to defent our city? Keep the money we have left to pay our legions and pray to the gods thy will bring us victory over the Epiriots.

Quintus ends his debate and leaves the senates house, he is in deep thoughts when he enters his house on the Palatinus.

[Elendil of Númenor]

Celsus looked out through the window and not really speaking to anyone, he replied calmly to Marcus Clarus's rage.

"Ahhh, well, I guess you are right... If the consuls say so......."
He turned to Clarus.
"Though, I'd be careful, young man. We don't want to be cleaning up the blood that will burst from your head if you keep it up like this..."

[Ozy]

Quintus is right. Most of us are too strong minded at this point to get to an agreement debating. Let's just put this to vote.