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Thread: Were Gladiatorial games all that bad?

  1. #1

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    Now, I know many people consider the Roman Gladiatorial Games some horrible, Barbaric thing. They rave on about how horrible it all was, and how savage and inhuman the Roman people were for watching it. Me? I can't stand people like them.

    I've just never seen the Games as such a bad thing, really. Yes, they sometimes died. Yes, the people would sometimes demand death. It was not as often as people let on however. Most of the time both Gladiators came out of it. And even when they die, I don't think of it as so bad. Many were slaves, yes. But many were volunteers later on, and the people often enjoyed seeing them more then the slaves.

    None of it really just appears so horrible in my mind. If I lived back then, I probably would have watched them, and enjoyed them. We all try and act so high and mighty about how moral we are, and how we value all life so. But really, at a NASCAR Race, when is the crowds momentum at its highest? When somebody wrecks and crashes. What is the entire purpose of stunt shows? If people didn't think they had a chance to crashing and at least getting badly injured, they wouldn't come. And they do get excited when it does happen.

    Even in things like hockey matches, fights can become very brutal, and the fans love it. Now look at the Games, and tell me the Roman people were really so much worse, and so much more immoral than we are.

  2. #2
    Mordhak's Avatar Civitate
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    I totally agree. Today's mentality is exactly the same... with the difference that we just watch violence on tv instead.

  3. #3

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    I have to agree with you. Think back to the days of public executions or even today when we watch movies that depicted scenes that are just or even more gruesome than what would have been seen at the games. Its simple, human nature makes us love violence, its in our blood.

  4. #4
    Nihil's Avatar Annihilationist
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    Well whatever about the competitive side of it, what about feeding people to wild animals? They did do that didn't they? Or is that just a myth? Seems a bit inhumane to me.

    On a related topic to whether there is any real difference between modern and ancient society, the other day I was in Turkey on my holiday seeing some of the amazing roman sites there, and one of the guys I was talking to was an old American about 65 years old, real nice dude. We were at Heirapolis and we were looking at the amphitheatre and discussing history and how advanced the Romans were technologically and so on. Then he said "well I just hope we never regress back to gladiatorial type things", as if that would be a terrible thing for civilisation. Cos he was a nice guy and I didn't want to talk politics on my holiday I didn't ask him what he thought about captial punishment which is widespread in his country, including the electric chair which involves being cooked slowly to death. I think I'd rather be eaten by a lion, but only just. At least you can try to fight back against the lion even if it is futile.
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  5. #5
    Wulf's Avatar Lurks
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    I don't find anything wrong with the Roman Games... nothing but a brilliantly concieved way to eliminate the scum of society! Not only do you remove thieves, murderers and other criminals, you also entertain the people, keep them calm, while you retain and -- possibly -- strengthen your base of power. Rarely has there been such an effective measure to keep the populace under control. Stalin's purges are nowhere as effective, plus they were more brutal and obvious, let alone far less entertaining.

    Yes, nothing wrong with the Games. For all I care, reintroduce it nowadays, with criminals with a life sentence and on Death Row fighting for their lives. Although the controlling function would probably be absent.

  6. #6
    Darkragnar's Avatar Member of Ordo Malleus
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    well roman games were a integral part of society back then in the roman empire at least, it was competive sport mixed with a couple of executions there was nothing wrong with the games, You have to remember that in those times killing another human was not such a big deal as it is today, i mean a lot of people died in those times by the sword. just look at all the exterminations in the old days carried out by the romans, germans ,hell every one name one civ that dident commit humanitarian attrociteys?.So The games were pretty good ,at least they were used to keep the locals subdued.
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  7. #7

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    Anyone who says that watching violence on TV and seeing someone expire in real life has never seen a corpse or someone get killed. I have, both instances. And I can tell you this... I have watched over 1,000,000 simulated deaths on TV, in video games, and other forms of media, and NOTHING can compare to the one time I saw a man named Daniel in central america have his head chopped open 20 feet from where I was standing with a machete, then shot 25 times in his body by 4 assailants in cold blood midday.... nothing....

    edit: btw the man Daniel was a contract killer, and he was murdered by 4 rival contract killers... I was just at the billiards room/saloon where the event took place.
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  8. #8

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    King...you´re so right....same with me. A good friend of mine was stabbed in the back with a knife four times, by one of his best friends. And all of that because of a girl both were in love with! He survived. But in fact, that was enough for me....
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  9. #9

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    Originally posted by Boudicca@Apr 4 2005, 11:35 AM
    King...you´re so right....same with me. A good friend of mine was stabbed in the back with a knife four times, by one of his best friends. And all of that because of a girl both were in love with! He survived. But in fact, that was enough for me....
    Although tragic the situation you mention is completely different than the Gladitorial Games.

    The people watching the games were afterall far away and didn't know the people fighting at all. As far as seeing actual death this is still a regular occurance. All of the videos from Iraq of bombs dropping, executions (in America), kickboxing and countless other sports regulary exhibit death to a gleeful audience. It's in human nature.

  10. #10
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    King_Azzole, Boudicca, and others,

    Please make sure that you take the time to tie your discussion back to the topic of this thread and do not wander astray with discussions of horribly violent modern events that do not help to advance the discussion of the Gladiatorial games. If your posted message does not link back to some specific aspect of the Gladiatorial games then you might do beeter to omit it and just save it for a different discussion

    It must pass these tests: How does this relate to the gladiatorial games? and Where and how did I show that my post realted to the topic?
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  11. #11

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    The topic is; "Where the gladitorial game so bad" no "gladitorial games". *wanders of towards the picture gallery*
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  12. #12

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    I wonder a little about the point of discussion. That todays crowdpleasing entertainments have many similarities with roman games is obvious but there is still a fine line between nascar and chariot races, between a boxing match and 2 people fighting each other with swords, between the electrical chair and being eaten by a lion in front of thousands of people.
    The difference comes down to the point that today we simply don't watch people die for entertainment (and I mean real death, not movies or games). Also re-introducing such practices as suggested would just bring us a step further down in development and I don't think that's our goal.
    Just watch "Running Man".

  13. #13

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    I feel the Romans were better for it, really. At least they weren't trying to deny the way they were, as many today do. They weren't trying to walk around pretending they were so moral and just. They watched the games because it was damn entertaining, and they didn't really care about that guy who died, unless he was a popular hero. And they would've told you that much. You hear about real death all the time, and you shout out: "Oh, how horrible! Death!" just to make yourselves feel like you're so much better than the killers. Then, you go an eat supper and forget all about that person as you dream of murdering your boss in a blind rage."

    Yeah, we're really moral people today, aren't we? :p No offence to anyone who doesn't do the above mentioned.

    Also, King_Azzole...did they also pounce on his dead corspe, rip his heart out with there bare hands, and parade it around town? Seriously...next time, try and make it a little less absurd. 3 PROFESSIONAL killers first put a machete clean through his head, and then shoot him 24 times? Why shoot him 24 times? They put a machete through his head. Maybe a shot or two just to make sure, but come on. These guys are trained to know when somebody is dead, and to do it quietly. Not leap out in public, whack somebody over the head with a short sword, and then empty three rounds worth of hand gun ammo into his already dead body. Sounds like we're not the ones watching too many movies.

    Also, what, did you stand there and count how many times he was shot as 3 hired killers did it? :p

  14. #14
    Nihil's Avatar Annihilationist
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    IMHO, real death just isn't very entertaining. I haven't seen it in the flesh, but I've seen photographs and videos of real death and there's nothing fun about it. Even a from second-hand experience of viewing death in this way its startling to observe just how unprepared we are to face actual death as opposed to fictional death.

    Something to reflect upon - the Romans made themselves out to be better then the Gauls for example, because the Gauls practised human sacrifice. But how is that any different to feeding people to lions? Seems somewhat hypocritical to me, which is what Hiroki is saying we are now for looking down on Roman ways.

    I do think there is a relevent point in here somewhere about our attitudes to death. A little like our attitudes to sex. We experience life firstly through our TVs, particularly where the raw brute elements of our life as animals are concerned. Its true that our detachment from the biological facts leads to a form of hypocrisy. We are all bags of organs waiting to get hit by a bus, squashed by a falling piano, or riddled with dum-dum bullets. Life is messy and death is part of the mess.

    Our view of reality is so sanitised that it is untrue. So beholding real death may have some merit. However, I think you will find that for most people witnessing the messy reality of death is more likely to sicken them and put them off their death-fetish, rather than encourage it. And I think for a lot of people a genuine horror of violence and killing is an honest and not a hypocritical feeling.

    Maybe we should discuss whether our modern squeamishness is a strength or a weakness? Could be an intersting debate.

    Can I ask Hiroki a question: have you ever seen death in real life?
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    Yeah, gladiatorial games wouldn't be so bad, unless you were some poor bastard Gaul or German who was captured simply defending your home and family and then forced to fight to the death. Now, I'm sure Roman legionnaires would have received scant mercy if captured by the barbarians, but I simply wanted to point out not every gladiator forced into the arena was a murderer or rapist deserving to die a cruel death. Many were simply victims of the fortunes of war.

    Perhaps the free gladiator heroes lived a life of NFL stars, safe in the knowledge they probably wouldn't get killed except in the biggest champion matches. But there were thousands of slaves who perished without any chance of hope. Let's not even start about the Christians being torn apart in the arenas for no reason except their religious beliefs.

    Conditions must have been horrible for gladiatoral slaves, or else Spartacus's rebellion would not have been so successful. I am one of those people who, while I understand some of the historical factors behind slavery, I will not condone or downplay the misery it created - either in Roman times or even in the ante-bellum South.


    The only thing I will say about the gladiators is the amazing propoganda tool it afforded the Romans in that it showed if slaves and criminals could bravely die without complaint, then the least the good sons of Rome could do was to mirror their courage for the glory of Rome.

  16. #16

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    Originally posted by Hiroki@Apr 4 2005, 04:06 PM

    Also, King_Azzole...did they also pounce on his dead corspe, rip his heart out with there bare hands, and parade it around town? Seriously...next time, try and make it a little less absurd. 3 PROFESSIONAL killers first put a machete clean through his head, and then shoot him 24 times? Why shoot him 24 times? They put a machete through his head. Maybe a shot or two just to make sure, but come on. These guys are trained to know when somebody is dead, and to do it quietly. Not leap out in public, whack somebody over the head with a short sword, and then empty three rounds worth of hand gun ammo into his already dead body. Sounds like we're not the ones watching too many movies.

    Also, what, did you stand there and count how many times he was shot as 3 hired killers did it? :p
    My my now that I reread this I realize that it does seem fairly far fetched of a tale... Well allow me to elaborate to defend my statement before I go into my point which Crander failed to see.

    The "situation":

    I was living in Honduras, Central America to aid my father in his agricultural business he started their in 1985. The date was 1994, and I was a high school student in a bilingual school in Jutigalpa, Honduras.

    During my spare time, since it was a third world country and didnt have computers or other cool toys, I would go hunting or drinking at the local saloon and play some billiards (if I wasnt in the mood to hunt).

    Anyway, I was sitting in the billiard room, going outside, when I noticed Daniel, the said victim walking down the street. Everyone knew Daniel... Why? Well he was a contract killer. You see over their in Honduras, killing is much easier then over here since they dont have a huge investigations department in their law enforcement wing. Soooo... most people carry firearms of their own to protect themselves, and believe it or not, murder does not occur unless drinking or a hired killer is involved. Daniel was a man who would kill someone for 500 Lempiras, which at the time was roughly 50$ US. Now realize, killing people for this price can yield you good "business" but also make alot of enemys...

    One of the enemys Daniel made was "Los Ganarez," which was a group of hired killers who worked together. Daniel always managed to avoid this group, except for the ill fated day... The funny thing was, Daniel drew his gun first and opened fire on the Ganarez vehicle (a small white sedan which had all 4 members in it). After Daniel emptied his revolver and started reloading, the men finally overcame their initial shock, the passenger (who was shot in the leg) exited the vehicle, and drew a machete. As Daniel attempted to reload he was chopped in the head, and I believe he died their, but all 4 men were out of the car by then, and unloaded all rounds of their revolvers into him. I said 25 shots, because the first man who was shot reloaded another round into the gun and shot Daniel one more time in the "head" (what was left of it). After this, they jumped in their vehicle and took off. A 2 year old little girl was killed as a bystander, and my friend Jandito was shot in the stomach by a stray bullet (he survived). Daniels death was a relief in a way... He had terrorized the local community for a long time. But the reality of it was my point...

    Nothing on screen or in a game can prepare you for the real thing... Death and its finality never hit you until you see someone killed in front of your eyes. I dont think I need to prove what I saw... If you are really an untrusting inane person, go to Jutiquele Olancho, in Honduras and ask around about the "Daniel" incident (in spanish they dont speak english).

    That is my point Crander. The original poster said he didnt think the Gladiatorial games were bad even though real people were dying, and my point was that with todays mindset no one would stomach the games... unless you are pretty twisted and watch macabre stuff on the net like a freak. :sick
    -Voice of the Celtic warriors in EB 1 and writer of the original tutorial on sound and music editing for RTW.

  17. #17

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    @hiroki:
    At least they weren't trying to deny the way they were, as many today do.
    I think you're missing the point. Watching people kill each other for entertainment is not "accepting" one's ugly self. Gladitorial games were merely part of the violent culture that was prevalent in ancient times. Just as today people are watching competetive martial arts of all forms, which very often are bloody affairs as well. Aren't people who watch these fights just as the romans, according to your logic? What are we denying by not glorifying death in an arena? Please tell us.

    As for the contract killer part, leave it. It's offtopic. I'm just sayin as much as that you don't know what you are talking about.

  18. #18

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    Originally posted by Rapax@Apr 4 2005, 05:27 PM
    @hiroki:

    I think you're missing the point. Watching people kill each other for entertainment is not "accepting" one's ugly self. Gladitorial games were merely part of the violent culture that was prevalent in ancient times. Just as today people are watching competetive martial arts of all forms, which very often are bloody affairs as well. Aren't people who watch these fights just as the romans, according to your logic? What are we denying by not glorifying death in an arena? Please tell us.

    As for the contract killer part, leave it. It's offtopic. I'm just sayin as much as that you don't know what you are talking about.
    I think a love of "violence" for violences sake is an addiction like any other substance. Violence causes endorphins to be released, as a protection releaased from our instinctual side. This excites us, and we like the feeling. Hence violence can be said to be a "drug."
    -Voice of the Celtic warriors in EB 1 and writer of the original tutorial on sound and music editing for RTW.

  19. #19

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    The games were really a sign of the growing corruption among the citizens of the roman empires. Whether the combatants died or not one day or the next didn't really make a difference. The people came to see them fight and die, that was it. They came to enjoy the control they had over these apparent inferiors and slaves, laughing at their deaths as they watched from a safe distance. The fact that a rare few of the later gladiators were volunteers was just another sign of the growing corruption within the people, that those people truly believed it to be grand and honorable to kill another human being for the pleasure of the masses. Once the romans became corrupt there was little the Emperors could do to stop the Roman Empire's downfall, no matter how well intentioned they were (Marcus Aurellius etc.). So yes the games really were that bad.
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  20. #20

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    I forget who asked, but yes, I've seen real death. When I was 12, I was staying at my cousin's house. I was out mowing the front yard when an old woman's car came flying down the road, supposedly out of control at that point. She slammed into a tree no more then 10 feet away from me, I was lucky not to get cut by the glass as it shattered. Her head was rammed through the windshield, which I guess killed her instantly considering there was quite a lot of blood, and she did seem pretty old. I yelled for my cousin to come out there and see, and she called 911. Police cars and an ambulance came out to the house pretty quickly. Her husband freaked out when he first pulled into the driveway, he thought the cops had come to take him in for stealing money from the Government. :p


    I've seen people shot dead before, granted, I wasn't all that close when it happened (thankfully, I might've been shot too), I just heard the gun shot and saw the body fall in the distance. Its not as bad in my mind, as you all make it seem. Your problem is you think about the death, and when you think about it as much as you seem to, you make it into this horrible thing. Granted, I didn't even know the name of those people, and I'm sure I would feel awful is somebody I cared for was hurt or killed. But so would any Roman. Nobody likes seeing there loved ones hurt. Otherwise, you just have to not think so hard about it.

    Reiksguard, who are you to decide who is corrupt and who is not? Who are you to set moral standards for all of humanity? Who are you to look down on the Romans as an awful and corrupted people? They may have watched people die in the games, but they also had racial tolerance, religious tolerance (before Christianity), and though the logic in it may have been flawed at times, they did think they were helping them by replacing there "barbaric" culture with good Roman Civilization. They did all of this before it was common place. There were black citizens, citizens who worshiped Celtic Gods, or both. The execution of the Christians was a political thing mostly, not a religious thing. When you refuse to bow to the deitized Emperor, it can be seen as treason.

    And about the "poor" Celts/Germanics...they struck the first blow in both cases. Gallic tribes invaded Italy and sacked Rome. Germanic tribes pretty much destroyed the Maniple Army of Rome. What do you expect? Had they not invaded the Ligurian tribes, they would've continued to harass them, and the same can be said for the Cisalpinian Tribes and the Germanic tribes up north. The Romans weren't these evil monsters coming to take the poor helpless mistreated Celt's/Germanic's lands. They were violent people, who made raids into Roman Territory to try and secure resources because they exhausted there own.

    That was a bit off topic. Just gets tiring about people raving on about poor Celts.

    On topic again, I'm not saying that you're denying a part of yourself by not glorifying it, I'm saying you are by thinking you are so much more pure and righteous than those who did. That was my entire point, but you seem to have missed that.

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