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Thread: Rodina i Plemę - The Slavs of WotN

  1. #21
    phoenix[illusion]'s Avatar Palman Bracht
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    Default Re: Rodina i Plemę - The Slavs of WotN

    yes, but sorbs did create state called serbia (rascia). by what we know about history, sorbs were the one also called white serbs or bojka, one part of them came on balkan, and made rascia in 8th century. so, practically, it can be in the begging as emerging or some faction called White Serbia (or Bojka).
    sorbs were just like other normal slavs, so all of them should share same roster
    i'll find some pics which can be useful, and i'll do one model, so that you can see my skills, and approve it if you like.
    long time no see, but still twc drug kickin'
    check out Tsardoms: Total War!
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  2. #22
    Sanskrit_Bandit's Avatar Wielki Kniaź Wiślański
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    Default Re: Rodina i Plemę - The Slavs of WotN

    raska is outside our mapframe though, and yes to the rest of your post

  3. #23
    phoenix[illusion]'s Avatar Palman Bracht
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    Default Re: Rodina i Plemę - The Slavs of WotN

    Quote Originally Posted by polak966 View Post
    raska is outside our mapframe though, and yes to the rest of your post
    i know, but isn't total war about alternative history? in which you create your empire from the mod start date, so, practically, as raska is out of reach, you can settle them anywhere.
    long time no see, but still twc drug kickin'
    check out Tsardoms: Total War!
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  4. #24
    Sanskrit_Bandit's Avatar Wielki Kniaź Wiślański
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    Default Re: Rodina i Plemę - The Slavs of WotN

    well, alternate history yes, but the start date should be as similar to real life as it can be. putting raska in...biala chorwacja would be pure fantasy

  5. #25
    Hrobatos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Rodina i Plemę - The Slavs of WotN

    why? that it existed is undoubtable
    position is somewhat...fuzzzy but if mod would follow most general accepted opinion and most likely answer I dont see why would it be complete fantasy?


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    In his work "De Administrando Imperio", Constantine Porphyrogenitus mentions the White Croatia (originally Βελοχρωβάτοι i Χρωβάτοι) as the place from which, in the 7th century, part of Croatian tribes started their journey to Balkans (more specific, today's Croatia) after they were invited there by the Byzantine Empire (emperor Flavius Heraclius Augustus) to protect its borders. This migration was described by Adam Naruszewicz in his work "The History of Polish Nation": "The Chrobats were known even in the 9th century under Constantine Porphyrogennetos rule, who describes them in his work De Administrando Imperio in these words: The Chrobat lived in that times (meaning, times of emperror Heraclius) close to Babigorea where Belo-Chobat family is now, while others, those who went to Dalmatia living close to France, called Belo-Chrobat, belo meaning white, as they had their own Prince. They pay hommage to Otto the Great, the ruler of Franks also being Saxon. Being pagans they ally with Turks. Those Chrobats who in Dalatia reside, derive from the non baptized ones, ones allied Turks living near Franks and with Serbians bordering." Then he also states: "[...] the great Chrobatia which as the white is called, till this very day baptised is not, same as their neighbours Serbians. Cavalry and infantry has it as much as Christian Chrobatia, all for frequent Franks' invasions."
    According to Nestor the Chronicler, White Croats where progenitors of Lendians. In his work from 1113 A.D. called "The Primary Chronicle" Nestor describes how in the early middle ages White Croats, Serbians and Karantans (most likely part of the tribes) were forced to leave their lands due to Italian invasion. After that they settled along Vistula river, calling themselves Lendians, and later dividing into Polans, Veleti, Masovier and Pomeranians. "After many years had passed, Slavic people settled on the Danube, where Hungary and Bulgaria are now. From those Slavic tribes they spread to many lands, calling themselves with many names which were from grounds they stayed on. And so, leaving on the Morava river, they called themselves Moravians, and anothers as Czech. Yet another Slavic people were White Croatians, and Serbians, and Korantans. Those, when oppressed by Italians who invaded that grounds, embarked towards Vistula and stayed there calling themselves Lendians, and later Polans, Veleti, Masovier and Pomeranians." Other authors from those tiems are not calling Croatians as "White". The Bavarian Geographer does not mention them either (same as Polans)(845 A.D.).
    North of the Great Moravia is where Alfred the Great states as Croatian lands (890 A.D.). In his "Geography of the Europe" relaying on Orosius, Alfred the Great says : "To the north-east of the Moravians are the Dalamensae; east of the Dalamensians are the Horithi (White Croats), and north of the Dalamensians are the Servians; to the west also are the Silesians. To the north of the Horiti is Mazovia, and north of Mazovia are the Sarmatians, quite to the Riphaean mountains."
    Nestor in his "The Primary Chronicle" mentions Croatians (but not calling them "White") as one of the russniak tribes. In 907 A.D. they allied with Oleg of Novgorod and took part in his military expedition against Bizantium. It is also mentioned there that Vladimir I of Kiev fought Croatians in 992 A.D. In addition, the name "chrowati et altera chrowati" is mentioned in so called Prague document from 1086 A.D. as the frontier of the Prague diocese. That statement was used as the propaganda to justify the annexation of Galicia during the partions of Poland.
    Cosmas of Prague in his Chronica Boëmorum describes grounds of Prague diocese in these words: "[...] The border of which towards the West are as following: Tuhośt, which stretch from the middle of Chamb river, Siedliczanie, Leczanie, Dieczanie, Litomierzyć, Lemuzi, until the forest which the Chech border is. Next, the northern borders, are: Pszowianie, Croatians and other Croatians, Ślęzanie, Trzebowianie, Bobrzanie, Dziadoszanie, up to the middle of the forest which the Milczanie are surrounded. From there to the East the rivers of Styr and Bug are its boarders, together with Krakow and its land name of which is Wag and all the lands belonging to the mentioner Krakow. Then it stretches along Hungarian marches up to the mountains which are called Tatras. Next, in the part which stretches towards the South, when joined with Moravian lands, it reaches Wag river and then Mure, being the name of the forest and the river bordering Bavaria." In the 12th Century, Presbyter Diocleatis in his "History of Slavic Kingdom" uses the term White Croatia with reference to the North Dalmatia.
    Wincenty Kadłubek in his "Polish Chronicle" (book II, chapter 12), describes the deeds of Bolesław I the Brave who "conquered Selencja, Pomerania, Prussia, Rus, Moravia, Czech, which he has left his successors as fiefdoms. The city of Prague was called the second capital of his kingdom. He ruled many tribes of Huns Hungarians Croatians and Mards."
    Last edited by Hrobatos; September 09, 2010 at 01:40 PM.

  6. #26
    Sanskrit_Bandit's Avatar Wielki Kniaź Wiślański
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    Default Re: Rodina i Plemę - The Slavs of WotN

    I wasn't saying biala chorwacja didnt exist, i was saying putting raska which was in serbia into our map frame would be fantasy

  7. #27
    Hrobatos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Rodina i Plemę - The Slavs of WotN

    Quote Originally Posted by polak966 View Post
    well, alternate history yes, but the start date should be as similar to real life as it can be. putting raska in...biala chorwacja would be pure fantasy
    it seems to me atleast, that you said same for White Croatia, if not why did you added biala chorwacja in sentence
    Last edited by Hrobatos; September 09, 2010 at 01:44 PM.

  8. #28
    Sanskrit_Bandit's Avatar Wielki Kniaź Wiślański
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    Default Re: Rodina i Plemę - The Slavs of WotN

    no no you misunderstood me, i just used it as a random location to put raska into our map, i could have just as well said wielkopolska or anywhere else

  9. #29
    Hrobatos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Rodina i Plemę - The Slavs of WotN

    now I understand what you mean, and again I dont,, Raška is roughly on Kosovo, not in Poland

    anyway to repeat my question, what about including White Croats, they fit the time period perfectly...in my opinion atleast

  10. #30
    Hrobatos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Rodina i Plemę - The Slavs of WotN

    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix[illusion] View Post
    yes, but sorbs did create state called serbia (rascia). by what we know about history, sorbs were the one also called white serbs or bojka, one part of them came on balkan, and made rascia in 8th century. so, practically, it can be in the begging as emerging or some faction called White Serbia (or Bojka).
    sorbs were just like other normal slavs, so all of them should share same roster
    i'll find some pics which can be useful, and i'll do one model, so that you can see my skills, and approve it if you like.
    well Bojka themselves claim that they are descedents of White Croats
    they live in western Ukraine and kieval medieval writers mention White Croats there all the way into 12 century when kievan duke conquered them, Bojka claim to be their descedents

    archeology of those sites shows huge similarity with sites in around Zadar to Knin, which is heart of medieval croatian state on Adriatic

  11. #31
    phoenix[illusion]'s Avatar Palman Bracht
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    Default Re: Rodina i Plemę - The Slavs of WotN

    @polak
    i know that raska is out of range, but, we can start with sorbs as white serbia for a state, or emerging, till player decide to settle somewhere
    long time no see, but still twc drug kickin'
    check out Tsardoms: Total War!
    Under patronage of respectable Annaeus
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  12. #32
    Sanskrit_Bandit's Avatar Wielki Kniaź Wiślański
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    Default Re: Rodina i Plemę - The Slavs of WotN

    k now im lost, where did white serbia come from. ive never heard of this term. or are you referring to the lands between the Spree and Elbe rivers that the Sorb tribes inhabited?

    regard any faction that might be included, we also looked at how important it was historically and how much historical info we can actually find on it. yes there are mentions of white croatia in sources but they do not tell us a whole lot about the people, the whole issue with white croatia is that it was a very mysterious tribe we don't know much concrete facts about. we were going to include the Vistulans (Wiślanie) as well but there just wasn't enough info on them, especially for a roster. And im not one to make fantasy units

  13. #33
    Hrobatos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Rodina i Plemę - The Slavs of WotN

    why fantasy units? I doubt that there were significant differences among these Slavs during this time period

    byzantine sources are very detailed for army composition of Slavs during the time period

  14. #34
    Sanskrit_Bandit's Avatar Wielki Kniaź Wiślański
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    Default Re: Rodina i Plemę - The Slavs of WotN

    i meant for unique units. It would be boring to play a faction that had a generic list of slavic units which i have already made and will be used for any other slavic faction. also western, eastern, and southern slavs are markedly different militarily

  15. #35
    Hrobatos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Rodina i Plemę - The Slavs of WotN

    in 7-9 century? on what do you base that? greater difference among Croats and Serbs happened during 9 century, when Croattian nobles, under frankikish influence made army to frankish model, copied frankish style swords, spears, helmets and armors

    Serbs got influenced by Byzantines, and their army was very similar to Byzantine

    but all that happened from 9 century and onward, before that they were regular slavic, there is nothing to suggest faritly different warfare among Slavs in Balkan and Baltic during 7-9 century
    atleast not to my knowledge

  16. #36
    Sanskrit_Bandit's Avatar Wielki Kniaź Wiślański
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    Default Re: Rodina i Plemę - The Slavs of WotN

    There was alot more norse equipment among the western slavs, including yes as you say equipment common to croats stemming from frankish influence. However in eastern Poland and further west there was a steppe influence which we see in such pieces like pointed "great Poland" style helmets. I think clothing may have been slightly different as well, croatians being in the mediterranean area, but im no expert on this and would like to learn more on it if i can.

  17. #37
    NikeBG's Avatar Sampsis
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    Default Re: Rodina i Plemę - The Slavs of WotN

    True, it's logical that different geographic positions constitute a different level of external influences. F.e. this is a map showing the influences in weaponry, armament and equipment for Bulgaria between the VI and XI centuries - obviously rather different from the Western Slavs, Croats etc.

  18. #38

    Default Re: Rodina i Plemę - The Slavs of WotN

    is there any info on the Krivich/Kryvičý other than what can be found on wikipedia?
    Hr. Alf han hugg til han var mod, Han sto i femten Ridderes Blod; Så tog han alle de Kogger ni Og sejlede dermed til Norge fri. Og der kom tidende til Rostock ind, Der blegned saa mangen Rosenkind. Der græd Enker og der græd Børn, Dem hadde gjort fattig den skadelige Ørn.
    Anders Sørensen Vedel

  19. #39

    Default Re: Rodina i Plemę - The Slavs of WotN

    I could search them for you if you like. What kind of info you need mate?


  20. #40

    Default Re: Rodina i Plemę - The Slavs of WotN

    anything that could be usefull to flesh out a faction a bit. that be it faction specific character names, titles or ideas for unique units.
    as for now we will to use our standard Slavic set-up. they will most likely be located at Polotsk, and have Semargl for faction symbol.
    Hr. Alf han hugg til han var mod, Han sto i femten Ridderes Blod; Så tog han alle de Kogger ni Og sejlede dermed til Norge fri. Og der kom tidende til Rostock ind, Der blegned saa mangen Rosenkind. Der græd Enker og der græd Børn, Dem hadde gjort fattig den skadelige Ørn.
    Anders Sørensen Vedel

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