[Faction Discussion] Kingdom of Champa

[Kinay]

Cham infantry
(I think it are machetes/falchions and spears instead of sabers and lances.)

“Other Chinese writers have left us brief descriptions of the Cham fighters themselves. One such writer characterized the Cham as "warlike and cruel." They were, he said, armed with bows and arrows, sabers, lances and crossbows. Yet another writer describes a troop of Cham imperial guards who fought with bows made of bamboo, crossbows, and javelins, who wore breastplates made of rattan, and who rode elephants into battle.”
http://angkorblog.com/_wsn/page10.html

Infantry:






Fierce fire oil casters
“Bottles of self-igniting "fierce fire oil"
were sent by the King of Champa as a tribute gift (and hint?) to a Chinese emperor in 958.”
Source: http://www.modelismoflandes.es/archivos/dbmvol3.pdf

Elephants
“Cham elephants are all crewed by a driver, a
javelin-thrower, and a parasol bearer at the rear.”

(I would imagine they also had elephants with archers on them, and of course the double-bow arcuballista)

Double-bow arcuballista as used by the Khmer, so also by Cham:


Cavalry
Horses would be rare I think, but they did use them.

When in 1171 the Chinese taught the Cham in the use of the double-bow they also learned them in horse archery, so the Cham might had crossbow cavalry or horse archers.

And a cool picture from the How about a Southeast Asia - Total War? Thread, there are some more good ones but I think they are osprey:

[yevon]

I think they will add double-bow in elephant more than made a cavalry use it. In Vietnam's history, when write about battle between Dai Viet and Champa, we hear they use Elephant. Very hard to hear they use calvary. That not mean they don't have calvary, but they use Elephant more than warhorse. In 1389, in a battle in Thanh Hoa, they used war Elephant to defeat Dai Viet, kill 70 Daiviet's general.

I think Champa will have war Elephant archery more than calvary archery. About horse archery, actually, Dai Viet have it, too ( but don't have many). And we think "Horse archery" is too ... Mongol for Dai Viet have it. Because of that, we removed Horse archery out of Dai Viet army.

whao, in this image, Champa ( or Khmer?) have buffalo chariot. I think made it to their calvalry will very great.

[gamevn]

Vietanh said there weren't any Kingdoms or Medieval's mod ever had chariot. He said it doesn't fix with game's system. So i don't mention about it in our forum.

[Kinay]

The Khmer did have chariots, though I'm not sure buffalo chariots, that picture could be fantasy.
It could be cool though.

The warhammer mod has chariots right?

[Pazu the Kitsune]

Hi, im the organizer for the 'Siam: TW' mod for Empire TW (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=263270)

I can probably help you guys with some of these factions, despite the fact that my mod is set roughly 600 years ahead of your mod :-\

That being said, i think u guys have a good grasp on this faction....And im glad you didnt rely on the Chinese account of the Champa and Khmer armies (Naked savages armed with wooden clubs and pointy sticks is neither accurate nor does it give these kingdoms the respect they deserve )

You are right in the sense that the Champa were like the Vikings of SE Asia. Thus, their troops overall morale was probably lower than the Khmer armies overall morale. However, the Champas elite units probably had the ability to frighten nearby enemy infantry. As for horses, the Champa, like the Khmer, had very few. Select generals would have had rode on horses rather than Elephants, and very rarely would they use light cavalry units. Because neither the horse nor the rider could afford to wear armour of any kind, these would typically be used to chase routing enemies. As for the armaments of the Khmer and Champa armies, they were almost completely identical due to the locality of the two cultures. However, their armies wouldve appeared different, as the Khmer military wore buddhist uniforms and the Champa wore Hindu uniforms. And, despite popular belief, both the Khmer and Champa had technology like crossbows and arcuballistas before they even knew the Han chinese existed. Ballistas that werent mounted on elephant back would generally be drawn by oxen/water buffalo.

A few final notes. The Khmer and Champa were expert swordsmiths, and mass produced them. They were not only a tool of war but an heirloom, to be passed from father to son. Most families would have two, one used in actual combat and one that was used as a sortof family crest or symbol. The Dai Viet and the Siamese (who emerged later) did not share this same level of connection with swords, and thus, their swordsmen should probably be more expensive, and perhaps even not as well trained. It is for these reasons that later on, the Siamese armies enlisted Khmer swordsmen into their ranks, and vietnamese factions such as the Nguyen Lords enlisted Champa swordsmen into their ranks.

And, depending on how late your mod will go, know that later on, when the europeans arrived, it was the Champa who, because of their connection to the south china sea and also because of their pirating, were able to get hold of firearms and create military units with them (although perhaps too late, as by 1500 they were more or less just puppets of the Nguyen Lords). The Khmer, too, were able to get firearms eventually, however to a much lesser extent, as they relied on the Siamese, who for a very long time ruled them either directly or indirectly, to provide them with them. Of all these factions, however, it was the Dai Viet under the Le dynasty that adapted and mastered firearms the quickest.

Hope the info helps

Next ill post a possible unit roster

[twbach]

Champa:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champa


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoOE7...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2v7kL...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAzUq...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pya2-...eature=related

New book:
Champa and the archaeology of Mỹ Sơn (Vietnam):

http://www.library.ohiou.edu/sea/blog/?p=1062

[Pazu the Kitsune]

Well a couple of things about the Champa:
First, they were a Hindu culture, but converted to Islam around the year 1471....making that kindof irrelevant to ur mod

Secondly, in addition to having ballistas the Champa had Crossbows, although these were not as advanced as the Dai Viet crossbows (ie not repeating).

Also, the Champa mounted ballistas on elephant back, and used these to a rather devastating effect. Ballistas not mounted on elephant back were pulled by oxen.

And, as stated, here is a possible unit roster for them:

Melee Infantry:
Cham Peasants(Peasants with farming implements, weak, uncommon, cheap)
Cham Village Guard(Peasants armed with swords, given some training, above weak, rather common, cheap)
Cham Swordsmen(Cham regulars armed with swords and shields, moderate, common, cheap)
Cham Spearmen(Cham regulars armed with spears and shields, moderate, uncommon, rather cheap)
Cham Axemen(Cham regulars armed with axes and shields, moderate, rather common, rather cheap)
Cham Raiders(Cham pirates armed with axes and shields, frighten nearby enemy infantry, elite, very uncommon, rather expensive)
Cham Noble Swordsmen(Nobles armoured with Rattan armour and armed with swords and shields, good morale, good stamina, elite, uncommon, rather expensive)
Cham Legendary Swords(Elite unit armoured with Rattan armour and carrying two handed swords, frighten nearby enemy infantry, elite, rather rare, expensive)

Missile:
Cham Peasant Bowmen(Peasants armed with bow and arrow, weak, rather uncommon, cheap)
Cham Bowmen(Men armed with bow and arrow, moderate, common, rather cheap)
Cham Crossbows(Men armed with crossbows, moderate, common, rather cheap)
Cham Javelins(Men armed with javelins, below moderate, rather common, rather cheap)
Cham Marines(Elite infantry armoured with Rattan armour, armed with javelins and swords and carrying shields, frighten nearby enemy infantry, elite, uncommon, rather expensive)


Cavalry:
Cham Cavalry(Light Cavalry)(Unarmoured riders armed with swords, weak, rather rare, rather expensive)
Cham Elephants(Elephants)(Riders armed with long spears, moderate, rather common, rather cheap)
Cham Elephant Archers(Elephants)(Riders armed with long spears, bows and arrows, moderate, uncommon, rather cheap)
Cham Elephant Ballistas(Elephants)(Ballistas mounted on Elephant Back, elite, very uncommon, rather expensive)
Cham General's Bodyguard(Heavy Cavalry)(Riders with Rattan armour swords and shields, General's bodyguard unit, elite, expensive)
Cham General's Bodyguard(Elephants)(Riders armoured with Rattan armour and armed with long spears, bows and arrows, General's Bodyguard unit, elite, expensive)

Artillery:
Ballista(Light Artillery)(moderate, rather common, rather cheap)
Double Bow Arcuballista(Heavy artillery)(elite, uncommon, rather expensive)

Units that need more research/discussion:
Cham Horse Archers(self explanatory)
Cham Mounted Crossbowmen(self explanatory)
Hoi Hoi(catapult/onager)(possibly comes in after the mod is finished)
Cham Hunters(Elite unit armed with bow, can hide in most terrain)
Genereal's Bodyguard (mounted on elephant or horse?)

Hopefully that will help u ^_^

[yevon]

They have catapult ( or Onager? I don't sure.) name HoiHoi ( similar Dai Viet), too. You should add it in Artillery.


Too difficult to find about Champa's military. All document had be fired or Destroy when they be captured by Dai Viet kingdom. This is some picture I found out:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Champa's infantry and war elephant:



Champa's king:



Champa's cavalry:

[Yelü Dashi]

'Hoi Hoi' sounds suspiciously like the Chinese 'Hui Hui' Pao which was used to describe the Muslim counter-weight trebuchet which reached China via the Mongols. This didn't happen until around 1272 when the Arab engineers helped the Mongols siege the Jin at Xiangyang. This technology did not reach the Dai Viet until the early 15th century when Ming soldiers and engineers were captured by the Vietnamese.

I'd doubt 'HoiHoi' means something else but I'll wait to proved wrong !

[yevon]

I don't know what is this, exactly.

But if they really from Muslim, I think .... may be. In History, Khubilai asked Dai Viet have to capture and lend to Mongol all Muslim merchant live in Dai Viet. Really have some Muslim like in Indochina in that time. But I can't sure they teach Dai Viet and Champa made some kind of siege machine.

[Pazu the Kitsune]

there...i added in hoi hoi under units that need more discussion
(along with horse archers and mounted crossbowmen)
(and this is my 100th post ^^)

[Augustus Lucifer]

there...i added in hoi hoi under units that need more discussion
(along with horse archers and mounted crossbowmen)
(and this is my 100th post ^^)

I just noticed the unit list, thanks for that.

It probably won't look exactly like that but I'm sure we can use elements of all these suggestions. I'd be hesitant to include a peasant unit, we're going for a unique look and peasants to me seem quite generic and useless for representative purposes.

Roster suggestions are always made better with concept art! If there's historical sources for a unit chances are there's either a primary source documenting its looks or it is featured in bas-reliefs or similar; otherwise, how could we possibly know about it!

[Wundai]

* Bump for the Kingdom Of Champa thread.

If anyone can help with finding special buildings (Strat Map Wonders for the campaign map) in the period of our mod 1171 A.D.
With pictures and a map marking the location of the wonder, that would be awesome

EDIT: Champa is pretty Small, one or two wonders should do

[yevon]

I am completing Champa Location and wonder.

Easy than I imagine , I can't believe too much data still remain like that, Even king Le Thanh Tong had destroy and fire almost of them.

First, I have some edit, about Sea boy's map. His map have some mistake.



He mistaked about city's location in these map. The biggest mistkate is Eatran. Actually, Eatran city is another name of Kauthara city, in present - day, this is Nha Trang city ( a best tourism city in Vietnam, I see that.).

In his Map, Indrapura actually is Simhapura, and it in a south of his Indrapura in map ( Simhapura in the south of Da Nang city in present - day. Itself isn't Da Nang city as in his map)

Simhapura actually is Indrapura.

Kauthara and Panduranga in seaboard, not to deep into mainland like his map.

Sea boy have mistake because he follow one map in wiki. I had check and edit. This is the true Champa location's map, verry sorry because this mistake:



1. Yellow location: Simhapura city ( mean " lion city"), the first capital in Champa's history.
2. Pink location: Indrapura city, Champa's capital in 9th century.
3. Red Location: Vijaya capital, Champa's capital in mod's timeline.
4. Blue location: Kauthara city ( or Eatran city). This is Nha Trang city ( one harbour) in present - day
5. Green location: Panduranga city, this city will be last Champa capital before when they complete be invalded by Daiviet in 17 - 18th century. In Present - day, this is Phan Rang city ( one harbour).

Champa only have five location, not six.

[yevon]

This is for Wundai: The Champa's Wonder:



1. My Son holyland: this is greatest wonder of Champa, have acreage is 2 km2, and approximately 20 km from the Simhapura city ( well, and Indrapura only and approximately... 15 km from the Simhapura city, we have two city and one great wonder in a small area again.) . Many archaeologistes collate its price with Angco Wat of Khmer Empire and Ayutthaya of Siam ( Even I have to surprise when hearded that).

This is a Royal Champa's tomb combine with many Temple's Buddha and Tower.. It begin be built in 4th century, and continue “update” in many centuries after. My Son holyland be put in a small derelict valley. Noone know about it until when some France soldiers find out this area in 1885. In 1904, Henri Parmentier ( one France archaeologist) and Charles Carpeaux ( one France photographer) had go to this area to research and photograph. They find out total 70 tower, tomb and Temple still remain and photograph all of them ( this album still in ... Museum Guimet in Paris. No way I can read it. But at least thank to them, we still have a chance to see the origin My Son holyland – If we can read that album. I say we have to thank them, because in Vietnam war, America's military say that they believe have North Vietnam military hidden in this area --- > they ... use bomber to bombard , and in present - day, only still have 20 tower remain.)
this is My Son map:



A,B,C,D,E,F,H,L. Total 8 Group. Because this Wonder too wide, I can't take all of them in one image, but I will try share you many image in many area in this Wonder:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

this is some temple, tomb or tower in this system's relices:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

schematic of one Champa's Tower in My Son Holyland:

some other image of My Son Tower, Tomb and Temple:

Vignette:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

vignette in some Tower's wall:

I don't know these image had enough for mod??

[KR153]

Thanks for everybody´s work! It was very helpful. Just keep it coming!

[Wundai]

Thanks Yevon, for My Son's Holyland, the schematic helps me the most!
Although the pictures of ruins also do
Have any more schematics by any chance?

And the other 3 wonders?

[yevon]

My Son is a wonder as hard as Angco Wat or Angco Thom of Khmer to made it. When I heard mod will make Angco as a wonder, I can't imagine how can mod do it. Now, as same as My Son holyland, too. We may be can have map of this wonder, schematic of few temple or tower of wonder, but how we have one image of all area??? May be My Son and Angco Wat, Angco Thom will be the most difficult wonder have to make in mod.

I don't know how to say, I only can say mod try as mod can.


about another Champa's wonder. I am recheck before I write. With Champa, we don't have to fear about image or data, but problem is they... too many. Champa's wonder have many than I timagine ( at least, I see 20 temple and tower still remain. Among them, I see at least 5 - 8 can be a wonder. May be I have to remake Wonder's map.). I think I will write all building greatest among them, and mod will chose some of them to made Champa's wonder.

And I have one a problem for mod: as same as Daiviet wonder, we have at least 6 wonder ( if mod think this is wonder like me.) beside Vijaya capital. This is 4 tower: Gold Tower, Silver Tower, Brozen Tower and Ivory Tower ( and Vijaya as the centre of them ) and one Temple Po Nagar ( the oldest Temple of Champa, 5 km in the north from Vijaya) and the Twain Tower ( which have two Big Gold Sphere in their ridge). I very when know this problem.

[Wundai]

Sure it is true, Angkor Wat\Thom and Sons Holyland are very hard to do IF you try to recreate them completely.
But remember this is for the campaign map
Which means you can make buildings alot less detailed then they would look in real-life(or the battlemap, for that matter)
I'll come up with something.

I see again alot of wonders in one location. Have any bridges,castles or monuments made in the 12th century?
I am just saying this to make clear it doesn't always have to be a Temple/Pagoda or a Palace

[yevon]

I see again alot of wonders in one location. Have any bridges,castles or monuments made in the 12th century?

I think they have ( If they rich enough to build 4 tower Gold, Silver, Bronze, Ivory, how can they can't built some castle?), but all of them had be destroy by Daiviet, no one remain.

Actually, exclude Ivory Tower ( among 4 tower, this tower farthest from Vajiya capital. This is the highest tower of Champa.), I see 3 tower ( Gold, Silver, Bronze) as wonder only because it have many curiosity ( Gold, Silver, Bronze, no need to say, when you heard their name, you can imagine how rich Champa as). But may be they only special with some outlander like we, with Champa, may be they very normal ( Champa usually use Gold in to make some building or status,... may be they as rich as El Dorado of America). I think we have two way to make this problem:

1/ make Vijaya capital as a wonder, one city in the centre of many special tower. ( we combine 4 tower with this capital)
2/ we only make Ivory Tower as wonder. Gold Tower, Silver Tower, Bronze tower, we remove all of them and only combine their idea with Champa's ability: always extra about money ( I think this is one good idea.)

I see 2th idea is a good way for mod.

hmm... Temple Po Nagar as same as monuments of one Champa Queen, although this is Temple of Pravati ( wife of Shiva) and Po Nagar ( one godness of Champa.). I know you feel tired when always have to make Temple or Tower as wonder. But almost East - South Asia is people very faithful in religious, at least is in mod's timeline. Champa is Hinduism, Daiviet is Buddha,... They usually use their money to make temple, that is normal.