[Faction Discussion] Dai Viet

[vietanh797]

What are you doing now ? Research ? Or are you creating units (models and textures ?) Are you doing this for us ...or for your own project. I am a little bit confused

Thanks all the same !

I said that my own project go to a failure so I will give everything I had to this mod
I and all my friend are trying to textures some basic unit and weapon(If that not work We will try to find someone can draw unit picture)
research is also my work
Daiviet's troops tree in both land and naval units are nearly complete
We just have problem in finding artist who can perform my idea and combine with the historical information

[Augustus Lucifer]

I said that my own project go to a failure so I will give everything I had to this mod
I and all my friend are trying to textures some basic unit and weapon(If that not work We will try to find someone can draw unit picture)
research is also my work
Daiviet's troops tree in both land and naval units are nearly complete
We just have problem in finding artist who can perform my idea and combine with the historical information

We have artists, so don't worry about that. Our unit guys can tackle a lot with a little to go on. This also insures that we maintain a quality standard across the board as we are stringent in regards to our artistic expectations. I'll PM you in a bit to see if there's a more effective way to coordinate this effort.

[gamevn]

We know you guys have artists, but the problem is we can't depict the clothes, the armours... for you to understand. All we have are some materials, some depictions, some names... very little pictures, and we must imagine. Even explain our images in Vietnamese for a Vietnamese artist is quite a problem

[vietanh797]

Lucifer check your PM

[Augustus Lucifer]

We know you guys have artists, but the problem is we can't depict the clothes, the armours... for you to understand. All we have are some materials, some depictions, some names... very little pictures, and we must imagine. Even explain our images in Vietnamese for a Vietnamese artist is quite a problem

Well from what I've seen Yelu make a unit out of, he could probably work with stick figures. Textual descriptions with some visual aid is more than enough for the more creative of our artists. Either way you definitely don't need to attempt to skin and model, if you feel the task of concept art is something that can be achieved, that can be advantageous to unit conception naturally.

[Panzercracker]

hey hey
gamevn only talk about a gun which was "forge"
when I say bamboo bombard I mean it is some what like the wooden bombard(or something similar to that I don't know how to call it in English) in Japan and Song
I don't know about start time and end time of this mod so I just make a list extend from one of my old work(I did a mod which replace Byzantine by Daiviet long ago but it was a failure because I am't a artist and I didn't have any artist to help me so I gave up) and that end up the above list
If there aren't gun powder event it will be remove
If there are why not add some gun in mod?

In history records, earliest firearms in Dai Viet were used in war against Champa, 1390

Marshal Tran Hung Dao

Actually, his name is Trần Quốc Tuấn, change to Tran Hung Dao after grant title Prince. So, we should call him is General / Marshal Trần Quốc Tuấn, or Prince (Trần) Hưng Đạo, he is also be called Saint Trần .

[gamevn]

All kind of guns, bombard... has been remove because the other factions don't use them.

[vietanh797]

All kind of guns, bombard... has been remove because the other factions don't use them.

gamevn you misunderstand what I said
All kind of guns, bombard...will be removed if the other factions don't use them.
this is what I want to say

[anhquang]

Some weapons in Vietnam history .

[Hektor27]

these weapons don't seem to fit the unit roster mentioned in some previous thead... anyways, weapon pics are plenty, it would be really awesome if you could find any pics of contemporary armours.

[Matsu]

Can you name them and present the historic facts associated ? Some weapons above I never seen them before

[Vagabond]

Can you name them and present the historic facts associated ? Some weapons above I never seen them before

They varies from a multi-crossbow ( type chu-ko-nu , i think) , some blades ( half knife, half sword) to some swords used in mod time or even later.

I don't know much about their equippements since there's not much information about them but apparently they wore very little or no armour at all. They had almost no heavy troops, mostly all were light skirmishers or light troops: bow, sword, spear, axe (1h) ,shield, crossbow, javelin, ... and some kind of greek firethrower (which i'm not sure), they fought on bare foots ( except the generals and nobles), they field poor cavalry, their troops were mostly militas and i don't think they got guns or canons. Although they were not the first ones in the world invented canons but they did self-invented some by the end of Tran dynasty, which was not in mod time .

Actually, it'll be easier for developpers to think their troops as pirates, they're very alikes, especially in appearances, i mean :clothers, equippements, etc ...

They're not a strong faction but they did survived 3 yuen invasions. Their army strength lied on their very well-trained, ferocious militas (they fought alot that time i mean) and their naval. In fact, their militas were half time professionel soldiers, they train and work their or their master's farm (or do other jobs) in peace time and fight in war time so they're very cheap to recruit and had a low upkeep. As for their naval, they board some strong naval, heavily armed ( especially with fire-weapon), small but very effective against huge, slow and pretty useless chinese vessels.

Unlike Yuen's dynasty who had only job, devastating China, Tran's dynasty was pretty well developped and rich, especially in agriculture and trades. Her population was around 7 millions by that time. So please let them have some money, please.

I don't want to get deep in to these useless historical stuffs like their generals, their strategy , etc.. because all you now, in game, you'll be your own general and do your own strategy.


So far i know, in Tran's dynasty. They organized their troops into :

_Royal Guard: noble, elite, professional, seasoned, hardy and full time soldiers who guard the royal family, the palace and the capital. They'd rather die than surrender, not talk about running away.
Equipped :long spear, sword and shield, of course the best of best.

_Princes's armies: professional , seasoned, hardy but maybe half time soldiers. They're the princes's privates armies, the most important force of Dai Viet's army. Varied from cavalry, spearmans, archers, swordmans, axemans, crossbowmans,.... I mean , they used alot of stuffs but in short, they're well equipped. Very loyal and ferocious.

_Provincial Guard: milita , well trained, equipped with a spear & shield. Guard villages and roads , made up the bulk of Dai Viet's army, poor equipped but good morale. Cheap.

_Marines : very well-trained, veterant, seasoned, hardy warriors, they used alot of stuffs too. Their morale was unquestionable. A very good assault troops.

So i think :

_Royal Guard = body guard, both mounted and dissmounted, long spear + sword + shield.

_Royal noble : both mounted and dissmounted, bow + spear + sword + shield ( i don't know if 4 weapons is plausible ).

_Cavalry: spear + blade + shield.

_Acher : bow + shield + knife.

_Axeman : axe + shield.

_Swordman : sword + shield.

_Spearman : spear + shield.

_Crossbowman: crossbow + blade.

_Multi-crossbowman : multi-crossbow + blade.

_Falxmen : falx (2h and of course, not dacian type, we'll use the vietnammese type ).

_Tiger firer : firethrower + blade + shield.

_Elephant.

_War Elephant.

_Marines : javelin + axe + shield .

_Provincial Guard : spear + shield.

And little to no armour for all. So i think skin job will be small but not easy.


Because their main politic was half time soldier, half time famer (or others jobs), i think developpers should consider taking their ablity of quickly mobilizing a sizable, well-trained force into game. For example, raise their regenerating rate, add more recruit slot, etc ...

If you're interessted, i will try to make some drafts ( of soldiers) and post them.

And sorry about my english .

[gamevn]

They varies from a multi-crossbow ( type chu-ko-nu , i think) , some blades ( half knife, half sword) to some swords used in mod time or even later.

 I don't know much about their equippements since there's not much information about them but apparently they wore very little or no amour at all. They had almost no heavy troops, mostly all were light skirmishers or light troops: bow, sword, spear, axe (1h) ,shield, crossbow, javelin, ... and some kind of greek firethrower (which i'm not sure), they fought on bare foots ( except the generals and nobles), they field poor cavalry, their troops were mostly militas and i don't think they got guns or canons. Although they were not the first ones in the world invented canons but they did self-invented some by the end of Tran dynasty, which was not in mod time .

 Actually, it'll be easier for developpers to think their troops as pirates, they're very alikes, especially in appearances, i mean :clothers, equippements, etc ...

 They're not a strong faction but they did survived  3 yuen invasions. Their army strength lied on their very well-trained, ferocious militas (they fought alot that time i mean) and their naval. In fact, their militas were half time professionel soldiers, they train and work their or their master's farm (or do other jobs) in peace time and fight in war time so they're very cheap to recruit and had a low upkeep.  As for their naval, they board some strong naval, heavily armed  ( especially with fire-weapon), small but very effective against huge, slow and pretty useless chinese vessels. 

Unlike Yuen's dynasty who had only job, devastating China, Tran's dynasty was pretty well developped and rich, especially in agriculture and trades. Her population was around 7 millions by that time. So please let them have some money, please.

I don't want to get deep in to these useless historical stuffs like their generals, their strategy , etc.. because all you now, in game, you'll be your own general and do your own strategy.


So far i know, in Tran's dynasty. They organized their troops into :

_Royal Guard: noble, elite, professional, seasoned, hardy and full time soldiers who guard the royal family, the palace and the capital. They'd rather die than surrender, not talk about running away.
Equipped :long spear, sword and shield, of course the best of best.

_Princes's armies: professional , seasoned, hardy but maybe half time soldiers. They're the princes's privates armies, the most important force of Dai Viet's army. Varied from cavalry, spearmans, archers, swordmans, axemans, crossbowmans,.... I mean , they used alot of stuffs but in short, they're well equipped. Very loyal and ferocious.

_Provincial Guard: milita , well trained, equipped with a spear & shield. Guard villages and roads , made up the bulk of Dai Viet's army, poor equipped but good morale. Cheap.

_Marines : very well-trained, veterant, seasoned, hardy warriors, they used alot of stuffs too. Their morale was unquestionable. A very good assault troops.

So i think :

_Royal Guard = body guard, both mounted and dissmounted, long spear + sword + shield.

_Royal noble : both mounted and dissmounted, bow + spear + sword + shield ( i don't know if 4 weapons is plausible ).

_Cavalry: spear + blade + shield.

_Acher : bow + shield + knife.

_Axeman : axe + shield.

_Swordman : sword + shield.

_Spearman : spear + shield.

_Crossbowman: crossbow + blade.

_Multi-crossbowman : multi-crossbow + blade.

_Falxmen : falx (2h and of course, not dacian type, we'll use the vietnammese type :)).

_Tiger firer : firethrower + blade + shield.

_Elephant.

_War Elephant.

_Marines : javelin + axe  + shield .

_Provincial Guard : spear + shield.

And little to no amour for all. So i think skin job will be small but not easy.


Because their main politic was half time soldier, half time famer (or others jobs), i think developpers should consider taking their ablity of quickly mobilizing a sizable, well-trained force into game. For example, raise their regenerating rate, add more recruit slot, etc ...

If you're interessted, i will try to make some drafts ( of soldiers) and post them.

And sorry about my english :) .

Well, I think even I, a Vietnamese can't say more clearly

I and Vietanh797 are making an army list (actually, it almost finished, many differences from the list i posted here, in page #4). There are machete, falchion, halberd, sword, spear, shield...

About the multi-crossbow, i don't know can it fix with game's system, you know, fire without reloading.

[Vagabond]

Well, I think even I, a Vietnamese can't say more clearly

I and Vietanh797 are making an army list (actually, it almost finished, many differences from the list i posted here, in page #4). There are machete, falchion, halberd, sword, spear, shield...

About the multi-crossbow, i don't know can it fix with game's system, you know, fire without reloading.

Well, because i'm a vietnamese, at least i think so

Sorry that i didn't read your posts before posting, i just read page 1,2,6 and 7 .

The incendiary buffalos sound nice but i think it'll be very difficult to implement them.

I think Dai Viet will be the hardest faction in game. Lacking armoured troops is their fatal weakness and they're surrounded by so many enemis : the khmers, the yuens, the champas. I mean they had war with all their neighbours. So i think you should give them some boost like morale to balance gameplay.

And the "blade" in my previous post should be called falchion

[gamevn]

Modders said that they will make DV strong at crossbowmen and light infantry. I think DV light infantry may have low def, but strong attack. And i'm sure all modders and gamers want a balance game.

I'm making their armor (of course, in text and some incoherent pictures, because i'm not an artist ,both 2D on paper and 3D on computer).

And I wonder are you someone i knew in one of own forum? (There are 3 or 4 Vietnamese forum discussing about this mod.)

[Vagabond]

Well, that's great to hear that you went that far. If you've played 3K mod ( which you should play, it's very nice), DV troops should be pretty similars to southern chinese troops. And i think we should make DV naval strong too. As far as i know, by that time, all Southern-East sea was under DV control.

You can find alot of help around here, there's alot of useful tutorials. If you have troubles texturing your models, you can let the modders do the job. Just do some art job and send them. Or you can even ask someone in the Mod Workshop to model for you (if he pleases, of course).

And i'm sure i'm not the guy you know, i just post here

Edit: i forgot elephants play a very important role in DV's army. They had alot of elephants and some of their generals even rode them into battles. So i wonder which we should use for body guard, cavalry or elephants?

[gamevn]

Bodyguards are cavalry. Some DV general mounted elephant to patrol, or operate, or field work, to command on a safe place... but i don't think on an elephant is a nice place for a general in middle of a combat battle. He will be a good target for crossbowmen, or javelinmen. And no one like their general run amok, out of control, rush into enemy line and die. But as you see on the list, there are 2 kinds of elephant. War elephant like small elephant in Rome total war. Elephant Archer have some armor, and they are white elephant (a race and precious elephant). But Champa was stronger in this arm.

About the armors, if you played Dynasty Warrior, you would find some kind of rattan armors, that is what we intend for our armor. We know DV army used rattan armors, but don't know their design, so we'll take from that game.

[vietanh797]

In my opinion
our faction like a defensive faction with units cable to fight in multi role(many light infantry but have weapon effect armour and also able to handle cavalry)
while Daiviet light infantry good in fighting in jungle so they can handle the heavy infantry of Song and also disable Mongol tactic of cavalry our poison crossbow unit can kill enemy easily
about Champa I not sure about how could we destroy them

compare to vanila I can say that Daiviet faction like Italian faction but have the strength of Timurid's elephant

err about tarran armour we can't have any picture because we in war too long
most of those thing were destroyed

[Vagabond]

Exactly, i was thinking of DV as an italian state too.

My idea of using the musketer's animation for multi-crossbow was just plainly stupid, i forgot that they have to reload too, how silly i'm .

The idea of rattan armour is very good, taken from Dynasty Warriors is fine but i think you can find something in the Broken Crescent (BC ) mod, they have some factions in India and Afghanistan which have some troops pretty similars to DV's, even their elephants. Just ask them, i think they'll happily let us.

From my TW's experiences, a faction strong in light skirmisher, poor cavalry, no horse archer and lacks heavy armoured troops is really hard to win, especially when she's small and weak. You just can't, you have nothing handy at all though it's dumb historically accurated. So for DV, they'll have to rely heavily on elephants, no one will play a faction just to sit idle there, defend endless invasions, you have to have at least a chance to win, which in our case, very difficult to find.

About Champa and Khmers, who also rely heavily on elephants , in BC, they made javelins into somewhat an elephants-machine-killer, a 1st tier javelin unit can easily drop down half of an elephant unit with just their first row, mounted javelinmans are very effective against elephants. And i don't think the yuens use any javelin .

Here is the link to BC's sub forum : http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=346

Let me know if i can do something, i've never mod anything, but i'm a developper (C++, java, python, ...). I'll be very happy if i can give a hand .

Edit : About the bodyguard, i think it's alot easier for a cavalry to die than an elephant. Once i fought a battle with the Solanki Rajputs, only the general was left, his elephant run amok and killed half of my infantry (it'd be suicide to use cavalry vs elephants and all my javelin unit were out) before fled away.

[Ashigaru]

In Dai Viet armies, they didn't use axe a lots, i think. So in my opinion, do not add axemen to the list.
I think vagabond is right, lacking armored troops is the weakest point. However, light inf in DV armies in game should have high damage, some effective against armor and high morale, even the militia.
DV armies also have heavy inf, but in the last tier, i think.