[Faction Discussion] Dai Viet

[Andy1912]

No, it's wrong. The symbol of Ly-Tran dynasty is Dragon.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_dragon
Pic: http://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rồng_Việt_Nam

And here are the national flag of Vietnam in Ly-Tran:
http://flagspot.net/flags/vn_museu.html

[Augustus Lucifer]

No, it's wrong. The symbol of Ly-Tran dynasty is Dragon.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_dragon
Pic: http://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rồng_Việt_Nam

And here are the national flag of Vietnam in Ly-Tran:
http://flagspot.net/flags/vn_museu.html

I believe that's what the faction symbol on the picture he linked to is. It isn't as long as a full dragon, but taking into consideration the symbol is very small in size, it is one segment of such a dragon. Admittedly it's a bit hard when comparing the two, but I can see the resemblance. Yelu would know what it is intended to be.

[gamevn]

1'st: i think the dragon is not specific for Vietnam. China has dragon too. But that bird symbol only have in Vietnam.

2'nd: the dragon isn't the faction's symbol, it's only the sign of the King.

3'rd: I knew that flags in this age were not the same for all army. Each general have their own flag. How can the modders design all of them?

[Andy1912]

I believe that's what the faction symbol on the picture he linked to is. It isn't as long as a full dragon, but taking into consideration the symbol is very small in size, it is one segment of such a dragon. Admittedly it's a bit hard when comparing the two, but I can see the resemblance. Yelu would know what it is intended to be.

Anytime I look at the symbol I see no dragon but something else, sea monster? you should try a dragon head instead, a dragon head with a gem in his mouth.

1'st: i think the dragon is not specific for Vietnam. China has dragon too. But that bird symbol only have in Vietnam.

2'nd: the dragon isn't the faction's symbol, it's only the sign of the King.

3'rd: I knew that flags in this age were not the same for all army. Each general have their own flag. How can the modders design all of them?

Dragon IS a symbol of Vietnam too from the time of ancient.

[Yelü Dashi]

It's not a particularly good symbol and is likely to be changed. It was based on a old sculpture of a water serpent/dragon/thing. if you can find something more accurate we can alter it when we come to fleshing out the Dai Viet as a faction. but try to find an image that is 'simplified' and not too complex.

[gamevn]

The simplifited bird is more simple than a dragon, or even his head. A Vietnamese dragon have some detail different from the Chinese dragon, but it's too small to see in a little icon. But however, what i'm trying to do is just giving a suggestion

[gamevn]

We are discussing in Vietnamese forum about "how many regions are there in Đại Việt faction?". In Ly dynasty, Dai Viet had 24 regions. In Tran dynasty there was 12. The population maybe about 3 millions. We know that it's to many, so we try to merge them to 3 or 4 regions. On behalf of my friends, i want to ask how many regions that you plan for this faction and the population of them?

[Hektor27]

I agree with gamevn, dragon is only the symbol for the noble class and the Imperial family. when it comes to represent the country as a whole, the bird is more suitable. Above is a clearer version of "chim Lạc".

[gamevn]

I found this in one of Tran Hung Dao war manual:

Use an old, useless buffalo, tie knives to his horn, spear to his body. He carry a peck of explosive, with delay fuse. Burn his tail, then he'll run amok to the enemy, spit out anything on his way and finally, explode.



WOW, even beter than incendiary pig of Roman and Berserker of German in Rome total war. Maybe he can blow up a low wooden wall (Well, but however, poor the buffalo)

[Lambo]

ok, cool, but whats the banner on the battlefield? i remember back in vietnam there was this really colorful flag for ancient vietnam (dai viet).

[gamevn]

In history, Vietnamese used "empty house, empty farm" tactics against stronger enemy. We left the city, taked anything that can eat (rice, cattle, poultry...) or valuable, poisoned the wells. Anything that can't taked with the people would be burn or bury. Almost the army and the people went to the countryside, built forts and waited. Some other, usually are guerrillas hiden around the cities and villages. If the enemy had gone out the city to found food or rob, they would be ambushed by the guerrillas or fell into many of their traps around every village. At the same time, a part of the army blocked the enemy's provisions, robbed or burned them.The enemy, large numbers and strong at the begining, but hungry and thirsty, disappointed, and became sick because they didn't use to Vietnamese weather. That is what the army has waiting for. They counter-attacked, usually in the hot summer, when the enemy was sick, kicked them out of the city and sent them home.

But in game, if you left all the city, you would lose the game, except if your faction liked barbarian faction in Rome Barbarian Invasion. Can you set Dai Viet as a barbarian faction? I mean the ability to leave all the city, and the people turn to soldier, and then disband when they back the city.

[Lambo]

I think it's kinda... you know.... boring to do that.

Pic: http://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rồng_Việt_Nam
By Andy1912

A very useful website.

[Lucius80]

AUH team,

I code for a living, at night i m a TW2 fanatic I've long wanted to see the southeast asian area represented. I m vietnamese so I m bias towards this faction. Let me know if there is any work.. relating to this faction that you need help in.

I currently do C/C++/Python for mobile devices mostly, but I can pick up whatever language.

[Faris ad Din]

What I want to see are more sources and especially pictures regarding the time period's Vietnamese troops types, armor, weapons, uniforms, and army structure. So far we haven't seen any but one source with photos of artifact Vietnamese weapons... There have to be some more sources. Do any of you Vietnamese know? It'd be fascinating to see!

[Augustus Lucifer]

Some users queried concerning the current allotment of Dai Viet regions. I'm not sure if we've shown a region map or not yet, but we might have. Anyways, Dai Viet currently has 8 provinces allotted, which are the following:

Thang-Long
Ha-Long
Thai-Nguyen
Ha-Giang
Son-La
Thanh-Hoa
Ha-Tinh
Nghe-An

More information concerning their positioning on the map and such will be more forthcoming when that faction is looked at. Feel free to suggest amendments, we are willing to make map alterations for quite some time in minor ways.

@ gamevn:

Concerning the hording ability with Dai Viet and the empty city tactic, I'll look into that much later in development when we have a lot more to play with and see if it can be made to work. We obviously can't represent the historical reality, but there's a possibility some considerations like what you suggest can be implemented. The empty city tactic was quite a common one in east asian stratagems, so it would be nice if we could simulate it, but it could pose problems as well.

@ Lucius80:

I'll get back to you. If I don't in a couple days then PM me, since I'm fairly busy and can be forgetful. You should know that what we call 'coding' in M2TW terms is dissimilar to actual programming, and while it has a lot of the conventions it is more specialized text editing. What could be especially useful as such are real code to automate certain 'coding' tasks.

[Lucius80]

Text parsing is not a problem. Me and my pet python will eat it for breakfast.

[gamevn]

What I want to see are more sources and especially pictures regarding the time period's Vietnamese troops types, armor, weapons, uniforms, and army structure. So far we haven't seen any but one source with photos of artifact Vietnamese weapons... There have to be some more sources. Do any of you Vietnamese know? It'd be fascinating to see!

Many sources has been detroyed or lost after many years of war, calamity... And most of them are text, very little picture (the ancients seem liked write more than draw ). We found some picture and information about weapons, army structure, equipments, ships... (http://lichsuvn.info/forum/showpost....&postcount=315 - not all of them).... But armor and uniforms are really a problem. And about the weapons and equipments, some of them were made after game's age, so we are confused which one that really was used in that age.

[Augustus Lucifer]

Many sources has been detroyed or lost after many years of war, calamity... And most of them are text, very little picture (the ancients seem liked write than draw ). We found some picture and information about weapons, army structure, equipments, ships... (http://lichsuvn.info/forum/showpost....&postcount=315 - not all of them).... But armor and uniforms are really a problem. And about the weapons and equipments, some of them were made after game's age, so we are confused which one that really was used in that age.

Interesting, I wasn't aware the forum you were referring to was the Ministry of Rites. I signed an account up there a while ago after a lot of headbanging trying to convince the registration question it asks in Vietnamese, but it seems our mod is already known there, so I won't need to go post about it in your English-only section.

[gamevn]

Can we change the regions? Because we are planing another map with 6 regions, and 1 rebel's region in Northwest. We found some resources (mine, wild beast, handicrafts like material or pottery, and fruit) too. But the only thing remaining is we didn't found the main town for region 1 and rebel's region.



(the black points are cities)

1- Red: didn't know yet
2- Pink: Doan Thanh (castle)
3- green: Van Don (a commercial city with a very important port in Ly-Tran-Le dynasty, here has been seen the famous battle Van Don where Tran Khanh Du destroyed the Mongol's ships that carried the supplies)
4- orange: Thang Long - capital
5- light blue: Hoa Lư - an old capital in Đinh dynasty.
6- dark blue: Nghe An (castle)

The white region in the south belonged to Champa. The white region in the northwest belonged to rebel.

PS: some names maybe different from now because they are old names.

[gamevn]

About the structure of the army, in the main, Dai Viet in this age have 3 kind:

- The regular army: under the directly command of the court. There was 2 kind (maybe i use wrong word to call it, but i can't translate the old name to English):
+ Royal army: bodyguard and royal army. Protect the king and his family, the capital, and some important place like homeland of the imperial family. They were paid, and were professional soldiers.
+ Regular army: they took turns to bear arms. Every mature man has been chose must join to the army some week a month, then returned to the farm, and another one took over from him. They protected outside the capital, the store, prison, office... They were unpaid, and worked as a farmer when they didn't bear arms.

- The militia: under the command of the government of the region. Like regular army, but they protected they own region.

- The peasant: they were common people, lead by a prestigious man in their town, usually a martial arts master, or the military leader. In peace they were farmer, trader... but in war, they fighted to protect they own village. They usually fighted as a guerilla. And of course, they were unpaid.

In Tran dynastry, there was another kind: the prince's army. Each prince has his own land, and has the right to recruitment in his land. These army rather warlike, only less than royal army. They were unpaid.

But of course, i think these thing are not help alot for the modder. We trying to find out about troops types, armor, weapons and uniforms