[Faction Discussion] Dai Viet

[Pazu the Kitsune]

hm, well heres what i know of the Dai Viet:
1) They were more organized and disciplined than the Champa, however for a long time they were not able to defeat them
2) They fought off constant invasions from the Mongols and the Chinese and raids from the Champa
3) Later on they recieved weapons and support from European powers such as the Dutch and Portugese, and their astonishingly quick adaptation of firearms allowed them to eventually defeat the Champa and make them subserviant (much as the Siamese were able to do with the Khmer)
4) They, like the Champa, relied on light infantry and skirmishing tactics, also often fighting where the enemy couldnt fight back with their full potential/strength

hope it helps.....and i could probably provide a unit roster too, should u need it

[yevon]

1) They were more organized and disciplined than the Champa, however for a long time they were not able to defeat them
2) They fought off constant invasions from the Mongols and the Chinese and raids from the Champa

actually, Dai Viet usually have war with Champa. Dai Viet and Champa always want to conquer each other. And Dai Viet usually win. Champa only win in the time of Che Bong Nga. He is the greatest King of Champa. He capture Dai Viet's capital 3 times and only be kill by Dai Viet's lucky. But may be you're ring, Dai Viet more organized and disciplined than the Champa. I don't sure, I only know that Champa army have a law will kill all soldier in a section if have one soldier escape. I think Champa army as organize and discipline as Dai Viet.

3) Later on they recieved weapons and support from European powers such as the Dutch and Portugese, and their astonishingly quick adaptation of firearms allowed them to eventually defeat the Champa and make them subserviant (much as the Siamese were able to do with the Khmer)

really have some hearsay about Le kingdom ( Dai Viet in 15 th century) had captured many firepower of Ming Dynasty ( when they rebeled against Ming in 1428). But until now, that only is hearsay. Don't anyone can sure. But when Le Thanh Tong became a king, he is the greatest king of Daiviet's history. He very similar, Suryavarman II of Khmer empire,Nobunaga of Japan ( may be)... He have a large élite amry and He have a very large ambition. He don't fear Ming Dynasty, and conquered Champa and Bon Man, massacred many people in these Kingdoms, unify them into Vietnam until now. He attack even some kingdoms of Laos, Thailand, Malaysia, Burma. I think, he really want become another conquerer. But unlucky for him, soon after when he die, Le dynasty break up very soon, Dai Viet fell into a long civil war until when they reintegrate into Nguyen Dynasty ( 1800) and be conquered by France in 1858.

4) They, like the Champa, relied on light infantry and skirmishing tactics, also often fighting where the enemy couldnt fight back with their full potential/strength

actually, many Vietnam's people think as you, too. They even think Dai Viet army only have one... diaper and a crossbow or bow. But I don't think so. Daiviet usually use guerrilla tactic when fight with a strong enemy like France or Chinese, but when conquered smaller kingdoms, they use a strong army with armor, elephant, warhorse,... Dai Viet army usually have two kind of soldier. One is King's army, they have enough weapon and armor ( in history, they have metallic armor, leather armor and wood shield, metallic shield. At the Ly dynasty, King usually play a game: he dance with a large metallic Shield.). Two is the civillian, King will call and provide them with weapon ( they will don't have enough weapon as King's army). Until time of Ly Thai Tong ( 100 years before time of AUH), history writed that Dai Viet has mass product many kind of drapery enough to use, and they don't want to use Chinese drapery anymore. Can you think a Nation have enought cloth, how can they always have to wear only one... diaper. Because of that, I think Dai Viet army have a light and a heavy infantry. But Daiviet's domination is a :
- speed of infanry
- guerrilla tactic with crossbow and bow - arrow have poison ( but they only use this tactic when fight with stronger enemy)
- they have war elphant .

Their weak is:
- They have good navy, but only can fight in a river, They don't good when fight in sea.
- They have heavy armor, but don't good as Chinese. ( Because of that, Dai Viet's heavy infantry more speed than Chinese's heavy infantry.)
- They have cavalry, war elphant, but they don't have many elephant like Sima, Khmer, Champa ( may be they is the kingdoms have fewest elephant in Southeast Asia).
- They don't good in besiege a castle or forstress. They don't have many kind of besiege machine ( at least, in the time of AUH)


You are Thailand??? I very want to meet you. until now, I don't know much about your history. In the time of AUH ( 1171 -1271), I tried to research about your history to know have any kingdoms in Thailand at this time. But... I only find many unreconcilable document. Some say have several Mon Kingdom, but they be destroyed before of that time, some say have one kingdoms name Lanna,... I don't sure anymore. If you really is a Thai, can you teach me some about your homeland's history in that time ( 1171 - 1271)??? I very thank you.

[Pazu the Kitsune]

well ty for that info

Another thing to remember is, the Viet migrated south, and replaced the local Cham and Khmer populations, much as the Han Chinese have done later in their history...

Alas, i am not Thai, i am of Vietnamese background and living in America

About 2 years ago, i knew nothing of the history of the history of SE Asia before 1900, save for the occasional story of heroes like Lê Lợi and Trần Hưng Đạo.

However, because of the work i have done for my mod (Siam TW, shown in my sig ^^), i now know much more of the history of Vietnam, the land of my ancestors. Siam TW mod is from 1700-1880, so anything after 1700 would be where i know the most, but i also know some stuff before then, like the Nguyen-Trinh War.

I am still rather in the dark about vietnamese history during this timeframe, and of Thai history i know nothing. However, someone who could probably help you with Thai history during this timeframe is ShopperKimpy, a Thai member of my mod team

[yevon]

Nandemonai. Arigatogozaimasu. I will find ShopperKimpy when I have freetime.

Actually, Even in Vietnamese, you don't easy to find so much data about Vietnam's history. You only easy find some data is the most basicest in Vietnam's history. Ex: you very easy to read about war between with Chinese - Daiviet, you very easy read about famous person like Tran Hung Dai, Le Loi, Nguyen Trai, Chu Van An,... but when you need read more deep into them, more difficult to find document. It usually in some old document like Dai Viet Su Ky Toan Thu ( write by Ngo Si Lien in the time of Le Thanh Tong). Or if you want know some legend, mystic legend about one famous person, or if you want know " What were Vietnamese wear in Ly dynasty, What weapon had used by Daiviet in Tran dynasty,...". Very hard for you to find the answer.

When we find data for Daiviet faction, we find out many data about castle, weapon, clother, armor we never know before. Until now, many Vietnamese in Vietnam still believe Daiviet army don't have any armor and only have normal clothes ( or more worse, only wear diaper), use some poor weapon like crossbow and short sword, knife, have to use guerrilla tactic whenever.

The times in AUH, don't have many book want say about them. Because this is the time of Ly dynasty's decay. And until when find data for this mod, I have just know Dai Viet's To Hien Thanh had just fighted against Khmer Empire in that time.

[Kurosaki]

When we find data for Daiviet faction, we find out many data about castle, weapon, clother, armor we never know before. Until now, many Vietnamese in Vietnam still believe Daiviet army don't have any armor and only have normal clothes ( or more worse, only wear diaper), use some poor weapon like crossbow and short sword, knife, have to use guerrilla tactic whenever.

One thing that you couldn't find on the english wikipedia about the Tran Dynasty is there marriage or wedding . They only married the people that are in the same bloodline .
Dai Viet's army may have some types that looks like " Naked Fanatics " in RTW and there are some types of army that wears armor made of bamboo , hay , palm leaves for peasants . The royal Army of Dai Viet may look like the royal Army in China of the Ming or Thanh Dynasty that wear bronze armor using spear , long sword . The Dai Viet faction have a lot in common with the Song Dynasty like thier culture and the way how they rules thier faction . And if the Dai Viet Army don't have any armor and good weapon then how could they stop the mongols invasions 3 times succesfuly .
( I'm a Vietnamese and i'm 15 years old so I haven't know much about the english vocabulary ) .

[yevon]

only married the people that are in the same bloodline .That isn't new. I know it already.

really have a different of clothes, armor between Dai Viet - China. Daiviet and Korea have a history very similar each other. Both of their culturebe be governed by chinese, but if you read history film made by Korea, you easy realize many different of clothes, armor between them and Chinese, even when they try copy from Chinese.

Because of that, I trying to find all data about Daiviet's clothes. I have tired too much about many person usually think " made Dai Viet like Song.".

[Kurosaki]

If you want it to be different than they should have the attack of about 50 and deffence 1 and Dai Viet Army will have Super Good Morale + Super good stamina so that they could survive for at least 10 turns or not they wear clothes or nothing to battle deffence is 1 and attack is 3 for using weak weapon then Dai Viet faction wouldn't last for a turn before the Song or Mongols invadded the entire faction . Or at least they could wear some leather armor for them to wear.

[yevon]

they don't have armor? What kind write under:

-Lê Hoàn "xuống chiếu làm mấy nghìn mũ Đầu mâu phát cho 6 quân". Mũ của ngoại binh thời Lê Sơ chế bằng da trâu, sơn đỏ.
- Hồ Tùng đi đánh Chiêm Thành, quân bộ đi đường núi cách xa quân thuỷ; gặp nước lũ, tướng sĩ giữa đường hết lương 3 ngày, phải nướng áo giáp bằng da để ăn
- tướng Nguyễn Nộn bị đối thủ dùng giáo đâm thủng áo giáp sắt, bị thương.
- Phép thi võ trong quân đội Lê Sơ có môn bắn cung, ném thủ tiễn, sử dụng áo giáp và lá chắn. áo giáp được trang bị rất phổ biến trong quân đội Lê Sơ, vì thế trong bài Quan duyệt thuỷ trận, Nguyễn Trái viết rằng: “Muôn giáp khoe oai tì hổ dữ”
- Nguyễn Trung Ngạn mác áo chiến bào, đội khăn quan võ, đeo "lăng kim nghiền" ( hộ tâm phiến) bằng gỗ vuông thiếp vàng 4 cạnh.

They have armor, shield. And certaintly have very many armor and shield. But they have them don't mean their armor, shield will like Song. Certaintly, Dai Viet'armor and shield will have some different Song.

Why you always think Dai Viet don't have armor????
Dai Viet have weak weapon? Even while they have spear, pike, sword, Qua, Câu Liêm, bow, crossbow, ... Do you know what is Qua, what is Câu Liêm????

[Kurosaki]

YES I DO AND I HAVE SEEN IT CÂU LIÊM and Qua both looks like a pike or may be like this i'm not good at painting . And sorry I have little time to read things online yesterday so I thought that you said Dai Viet faction wear nothing , but the truth is you said :" Until now, many Vietnamese in Vietnam still believe Daiviet army don't have any armor and only have normal clothes ( or more worse, only wear diaper), use some poor weapon like crossbow and short sword, knife, have to use guerrilla tactic whenever. " So sorry about that .

[yevon]

no, this is spear or pike. Qua and Câu Liêm more similer Long Blade ( use by Guan Yu in Three Kingdoms of Chinese):

This is Qua and Câu Liêm:





and how to use them:

[Pazu the Kitsune]

the Vietnamese have polearms?

I was told they didnt because they were 'too unwieldy in the jungle'

Did they use any formations with them? Or did the jungle make that impossible too?

[yevon]

I say before.
Dai Viet is a smaller kingdoms before greater Empires like Song or Mongol, but they still is "invader" before Champa or Khmer Empire ( and these two kingdoms is invader before Daiviet, too.). They have a large and strong army enough to invaded smaller kingdoms and use guerrilla tactic to against stronger invader. They is addition between these tactic.

In some imagine at Tran dynasty, we still see the soldier holding shield and spear. This is a new even with Vietnamese. Because, like you see, they always think " we are weak nation', we " 'too unwieldy in the jungle'. Actually, Dai Viet army more professional than they think. Tran and Le ( 1428 - 1500) is two dynasty have strongest army in Dai Viet's history.

But unfortunately, Dai Viet's history writer only see important to write about history event. They don't see write about their weapon, their kind of armor, their clothes,... is important. When research about it, we only find out it ( very difficult, very few) when they write about it unwilled. Like they write " Nguyen Non general be damaged by a spear through out his steel armor.". We read and understand in that time, they have steel armor.

Because of that, I say we very difficult too find more deep about DaiViet's history.

But I really think they have formations with them. Ok. They use guerrilla tactic to make their invader more weeker, and then, they will attack with their main army, use quickly attack tactic.

[Ashigaru]

Dai Viet have large advantages when fighting in the woods, of course, because of their main terrain. But i must say that Dai Viet also had many battles in the fields, and usually won. that 's the reason why polearms were used in Dai Viet army. Even they were not used them in formations, or they used them in the woods, with a good polearm like Cau Liem, a infantry man can cut an enemy into pieces.

[Vagabond]

You guys heard anything new ?, how's the progress ?

[yevon]

I am finding who will design for Dai Viet army.

I hopy my write about Dai Viet's weapon and armor, they can read and understand.

[Pazu the Kitsune]

Ok i realize this thread is getting a little crowded so heres my last post/question:

Were there female regulars in the Dai Viet army? I was told that there was from 1700-1800, especially in the Tay Son armies (revolutions leaders promised equality for women, attracted many women to join the revolutionary armies, they even have a prominant female general)
But the Tay Son revolution comes later, not relevant to your mod....

Also, i read in a book about Vietcong, in a section about female VC, that 'women have had an important role in Vietnamese armies for a very long time'

So, itd make sense if Dai Viet had them, right? And how will you handle them?
(in my mod were making it so that every 6th soldier is female in most units, except for elite units)

[yevon]

Were there female regulars in the Dai Viet army? I was told that there was from 1700-1800, especially in the Tay Son armies (revolutions leaders promised equality for women, attracted many women to join the revolutionary armies, they even have a prominant female general)
But the Tay Son revolution comes later, not relevant to your mod....

Actually is have. originally, Vietnamese don't follow patrilineage until when Chinese invaded them in 139 BC and force them follow patrilineage. In old Lacviet dynasty and Auviet dynasty, although men is the bread-winer in family, but women still like him, too. In 40- 43 AD, one great rebel had broken in Auviet to against Han Dynasty, they defeated Han army until Ma Yuan lead Han army invaded again ( Ma Yuan is ancestor of Ma Chao in China's Three Kingdom history.). Their rebel leader is Sister Trung, and in their army have many women soldier and female general.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tr%C6%B0ng_Sisters

After that, in 248 AD, China's Three Kingdom history. One another rebel lead by one virgin girl name Trieu Thi Trinh ( Trinh = virgin) had broken to against Wu dynasty. Legend sayBut Wu's King is Sun Quan ordered Luc Dan ( he is grandfather of Lu Dan, i am sorry, I don't know his Chinese name.) lead Wu army to defeat her. She killed herself when she 20 year old. Legend say she had win in 30 battle and only be defeat by Luc Dan. Wu army very fear her and say " use spear against Tiger easier than have to face up with Female's king.". In Modern age, some Vietnamese say she is " Vietnamese's Joan of Arc version ". Well, they really similar each other.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tri%E1%...E1%BB%8B_Trinh
Because of that, Vietnamese usually say: " when invader come, even women will fight."

But after when defeated Trinh. Chinese no want have any Auviet leader tribe remain anymore. They replace or kill all of them and send Chinese to Auviet to become bureaucracy. After that, no more any women soldier, except a few female general ( Only see in some history legend. Don't anyone can sure they are real person.). They be forbidden even to study. In Tay Son, one more, have some female become general, the greatest of them is Bui Thi Xuan, she is Tran Quang Dieu's wife. They with their daughter are be executed by Nguyen Anh when he finally had defeated Tay Son and builded Nguyen Dynasty. After that, no more any female soldier again. But after 1945, Vietminh ( American call them is Vietcong.), follow Washington's declaration of independence ideal, they say " all human are equality.". After that, Female can be work in many profession they be forbidden before, and of couse, they can accept in Army.

Because of that, we will don't have any female soldier in Ly - Tran dynasty. But I think may be Champa have some, because they don't follow patrilineage.

[anhquang]

In Tran period, there were many women good at fighting art. When Tran dynasty applied the empty city tactic, women in the capital were trained to fight in order to protect themselves and King's family when fleeing so that the main army can concentrate their mind in fighting with Mongol army. The most famous woman in this time was Tran Thi Dung, wife of Tran Thu Do. She led the King's family and Thang Long people to leave the city safely. Another woman is princess Thuy Tien, Pham Ngu Lao's wife. Her fighting skill was ranked 15th in Tran Dynasty, higher than that of general Ngu Lao, 17th.
But I think, due to the restriction in the number of unit slots, the female guard unit is inappropriate.

[anhquang]

no, this is spear or pike. Qua and Câu Liêm more similer Long Blade ( use by Guan Yu in Three Kingdoms of Chinese):

This is Qua and Câu Liêm:





and how to use them:

Cau Liem, Qua are anti-cavalry weapons. Especially the weapon above can fight effectively with both infantry and cavalry thank to the wide blade on top and the curve blade. This special unit was very powerful in Dai Viet army

[Augustus Lucifer]

You guys heard anything new ?, how's the progress ?

Well since DV isn't the faction currently being developed, the progress in terms of the mod perspective is insubstantial. We're developing them in order of viability and resources though, so I'd say DV is much higher on the list than a lot of other factions due to all the information being provided for them.

I think we brought on some guy who was/is supposed to be posting more finite specifications in the dev forum, but I haven't seen him around much. If any of the guys from Ministry of Rites want to get a 'spokesman' or what have you, or a couple people like that, who can relay dev queries to the Viet forums and relay that stuff to the devs, let me know via PM as it would probably help the future development coordination on this faction and potentially the Cham faction.