[Faction Discussion] Dai Viet

[Augustus Lucifer]

Dai Viet

This thread can be used for non-team members to discuss the Dai Viet faction. Research, ideas, and imagery for the team to use in our development of the faction are appreciated. This post will contain more information about this faction and their inclusion within the mod in the future.

Note: Please do not include Osprey images in this thread, as it is against the policy of TWC to allow copyrighted material to be posted, especially Osprey Publications.

Regards,
AUH Team

[devilboy412]

Hi, I'm a Vietnamese. Feel free to ask me anything you want ^^
First thing, Dai Viet means the great Viet (Great Yue) & Vietnam: Southern Viet (Southern Yue)

"During this period, Dai Viet was ruled by the Tran dynasty. Đại Việt repelled three invasions in 1257 AD, 1284 AD, and 1288 AD by the Mongols under Kublai Khan, who had occupied China and founded the Yuan dynasty. The key to Đại Việt's successes was to avoid the Mongols' strength in open field battles and city sieges - the Trần court abandoned the capital and the cities. The Mongols were then countered decisively at their weak points, which were battles in swampy areas such as Chương Dương, Hàm Tử, Vạn Kiếp and on rivers such as Vân Đồn and Bạch Đằng.During the Trần Dynasty, Đại Việt repelled three invasions in 1257 AD, 1284 AD, and 1288 AD by the Mongols under Kublai Khan, who had occupied China and founded the Yuan dynasty. The key to Đại Việt's successes was to avoid the Mongols' strength in open field battles and city sieges - the Trần court abandoned the capital and the cities. The Mongols were then countered decisively at their weak points, which were battles in swampy areas such as Chương Dương, Hàm Tử, Vạn Kiếp and on rivers such as Vân Đồn and Bạch Đằng."

Source: Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Vietnam

Below are some useful sources:

Weapons: http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/lof...hp/t18348.html

Artifacts: http://vietnamnews.vnagency.com.vn/s...um=04SUN220106


Historical texts:
wps03_011.pdf (Most important)



85.pdf

Vietnam.doc

Cheers!

[Asean]

What year is that map based on?

Southeast Asia had very little open fields, if at all, and it's very hot and humid. I remember reading about Mongols dying of diseases in Southern China trying to conquer the Song dynasty. So I think something to look into is advantages for factions in these environments, and how heavily armored armies would be at a disadvantage fighting in southeast asia and southern china.

[devilboy412]

It's an 18 century map but I think it might help. The mongol army that invaded DaiViet & Champa was mostly conscripted men from Yunnan, Guandong & Guanxi provinces who were used to the climate, except for the mongol cavaliers. Besides, the southern land like the Red Delta is full of rivers and lakes. That's why the calvary couldnt operate at full strength.

[jalen911]

I knew a very famous Vietnamese General, his name is Chen xing dao (陈兴道)

[Hektor27]

Start game: 1171:
Faction Leader: Ly Anh Tong (age: 36, he died 4 years later in 1175 at 40) : High authority, medium command, high piety, good management skills/chivalry.


Faction Heir : To Hien Thanh (age: unknown, but older than FL, reagent for the 2 years old prince, die 4 years later): high command, medium authority, very good management/chivalry; upright+loyal.


The Prince: Ly Cao Tong weak command, low authority, some dread, extravagant+gambling+lax

[Hektor27]

I knew a very famous Vietnamese General, his name is Chen xing dao (陈兴道)

He (Chen xing dao or in vietnamese Tran Hung Dao) appears too late in the game to be of any particular importance. Other than that, the game starts with Ly dynasty, it took some odd twists of fate and a palace coup-de-tat for the Tran family to take power none of which is easy to replicate. So, no Tran family, no Tran Hung Dao i guess.


Sorry for the double post

[jalen911]

Yep, I knew it. But he is pretty good general^^!

[Augustus Lucifer]

The Trần will be included. How is another matter for another time, suffice it to say Dai Viet is not our current focus, but it was named as such so that we could incorporate both dynasties in one manner or another.

[moivao]

you can refer to http://lichsuvn.info/index.php/Vo-tuong/ , if you can read some vietnamese

[anakinsolo]

In 1225, Tran family took the throne from the Ly family, which ruled Dai Viet from 1009 to 1225. This was a special event because Tran family took it in peace, there were no wars or rebellions.
The ruler of Dai Viet was Tran Thai Tong: high authority, intelligent, good manner, high command
Can you include this event in this mod as an event of Dai Viet ?

[SR_GemC]

Why dont you make the throne change by using a small clip ?
Because there was a wedding between Trần clan and Lý clan, so the throne was claimed by Trần clan in peace
When this event happens, a small clip pop up and the name of the faction changes, is that okay ?

History
Year 1226, Queen Lý Chiêu Hoàng crowned her husband Trần Cảnh King of Đại Việt
December 1257, Uriyangqadai led 30 thounsand men invaded Đại Việt
Early 1258, they retreated. End of the 1st invasion of Mongol
2nd invasion ( Jan 1285- May 1285)
3nd invasion ( Dec 1287 - April 1288)

P/s: please dont translate our Vietnamese names to Chinese ( eg Đại Việt -> Great Yue)

[Andy1912]

Faction Heir : To Hien Thanh (age: unknown, but older than FL, reagent for the 2 years old prince, die 4 years later): high command, medium authority, very good management/chivalry; upright+loyal.

To Hien Thanh had never been the faction heir. He is not a Ly's family member.

Why dont you make the throne change by using a small clip ?
Because there was a wedding between Trần clan and Lý clan, so the throne was claimed by Trần clan in peace
When this event happens, a small clip pop up and the name of the faction changes, is that okay ?

History
Year 1226, Queen Lý Chiêu Hoàng crowned her husband Trần Cảnh King of Đại Việt
December 1257, Uriyangqadai led 30 thounsand men invaded Đại Việt
Early 1258, they retreated. End of the 1st invasion of Mongol
2nd invasion ( Jan 1285- May 1285)
3nd invasion ( Dec 1287 - April 1288)

P/s: please dont translate our Vietnamese names to Chinese ( eg Đại Việt -> Great Yue)

There's a problem, what happen if we choose another family member not Ly Hue Tong and he have a male heir. Then the event Ly Chieu Hoang give the throne to Tran clan will be unlogical.

[SR_GemC]

There's a problem, what happen if we choose another family member not Ly Hue Tong and he have a male heir. Then the event Ly Chieu Hoang give the throne to Tran clan will be unlogical.

At that time, the power of Lý clan was so weak and the man who controled everything is Trần Thủ Độ ( uncle of Trần Cảnh, 1st king of Trần Dynasty). Because of his influence, Lý Phật Kim ( aka Lý Chiêu Hoàng) was crowned. So in my opinion, in 1224, there is a pop up message " Because of the power of Trần clan, the most powerful clan in Đại Việt at that time, Lý Chiêu Hoàng was crowned. Year 1225, Lý Chiêu Hoàng crowned her husband Trần Cảnh ( aka Trần Thái Tông) King of Đại Việt. The Trần Dynasty began". I think it's logical now ^^
But you can change to make it more logical. It's just my opinion

[Andy1912]

and what will happen with all the Ly's family member? Gonna become like the Greek city faction in Extended Greek Mod where there is multi family line in one faction?

[SR_GemC]

and what will happen with all the Ly's family member? Gonna become like the Greek city faction in Extended Greek Mod where there is multi family line in one faction?

vanish or be killed, whatever....
but this is the game, just make all Ly's general disapear and replace by Tran's genarals :|

[Andy1912]

vanish or be killed, whatever....
but this is the game, just make all Ly's general disapear and replace by Tran's genarals :|

very difficult in coding (i think so) and unlogical too. Because the Tran's family member always there and there's no historical report about the completely destroy of Ly clan. Some of them run to nowaday Korean.

[SR_GemC]

very difficult in coding (i think so) and unlogical too. Because the Tran's family member always there and there's no historical report about the completely destroy of Ly clan. Some of them run to nowaday Korean.

I dont think it's hard to do this. Just make Ly generals disapear. Because in Tran dynasty, Ly people can not be general who control massive armies

[Augustus Lucifer]

You can't remove or kill characters unless you know their name, and there's no way to do that mid-campaign, so it only works on any family specified in the descr_strat. We will pursue different options, but the game system of family trees is obviously not conducive to dynastic changes. However, the mod dHRR was faced with a similar problem and I recall them finding a theoretical means for selecting heirs, to some extent, so that will be looked into.

[gamevn]

I have a little idea about the symbol of this faction. As i see here http://www.moddb.com/mods/all-under-...owing-factions that symbol is so... strange. I suggest the "Chim Lạc", an important symbol on "Đông Sơn kettledrum" and very popular in Vietnam.

On "Đông Sơn kettledrum" http://vuongtuyetngoc.vnweblogs.com/post/7327/86118

And a simplifited symbol: http://suoiluongtourism-danatol.vn/I...n/chimlac2.jpg