[Faction Discussion] Pagan Kingdom

[Augustus Lucifer]

Pagan Kingdom

This thread can be used for non-team members to discuss the Pagan Kingdom faction. Research, ideas, and imagery for the team to use in our development of the faction are appreciated. This post will contain more information about this faction and their inclusion within the mod in the future.

Note: Please do not include Osprey images in this thread, as it is against the policy of TWC to allow copyrighted material to be posted, especially Osprey Publications.

Regards,
AUH Team

[Double A]

Does the Pagan Kingdom have a formal name or is it just "Pagan Kingdom"?

[Augustus Lucifer]

Does the Pagan Kingdom have a formal name or is it just "Pagan Kingdom"?

That is the formal name. It is not the same Pagan as the religion. Not even marginally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagan_Kingdom

[Yelü Dashi]

The Kingdom of Pagan also when by the name 'Bagan', and was renamed by Burmese when they decided to rename lots of places after the colonial period ended. As this is a little-known faction, and the name might cause confusion, it might be worth considering renaming it ?

[Göteborgare]

Yeah, that was what i was just going to advice.
Nothing wrong with Bagan.

[Double A]

Oh OK, thank you for enlightening me! Hehe, now I can go bug the girl at my school who hates geography AND history!

[Wundai]

What the...

[familyguy1]

Oh OK, thank you for enlightening me! Hehe, now I can go bug the girl at my school who hates geography AND history!

Giving her this:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

and this so she will know what the real world looks like:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Right...

Oh, and just to let you know, Africa is a country, Japan is part of China, and the United Kingdom and UK are different countries.

Spam much?

Yes renaming it the Bagan Kingdom would be better.

[Double A]

Yeah sorry about that... I'll edit it out.

Bagan sounds better.

[Shopperkimpy]

burmese ambassador drawing by chinese


burmese soldier

[Lux_Aeterna]

I think the Empire of Bagan will be an excellent faction to develop, however the info is very limited. I found very few pictures on the net, I will try to get some books about Bagan. Here are some of the pictures I found on the net.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Statue of King Anawrahta, founder of the Bagan dynasty http://yelwinoo.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/done.jpg

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

King of Bagan in a Procession

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Bagan's King listening to the public

[Lux_Aeterna]

I found more information about the Empire of Bagan (sorry no pictures), in a book titled History of Burma by G. E. Harvey, in which a part of the "The book of ser Marco Polo" is quoted. This part of the book narrated in the book of Marco Polo, is set during the war between Bagan and the mongols (Yuan Dynasty in China). However later in the book there is an historical review about the narration made by Marco Polo, but I'll post it later, so here it is the narration of the battle :

“ The king of Mien (Burma) had, let me tell you, 2,000 great elephants, on each of which was set a tower of timber, well framed and strong, and carrying from twelve to sixteen well-armed fighting men. And besides these, he had of horsemen and of footmen good 60,000 men. In short, he equipped a fine force, as well befitted such a puissant Prince. It was indeed a host capable of doing great things.

And what shall I tell you? When the king had completed these great preparations to fight the Tartars, he tarried not, but straightway marched against them….And when the captain of the Tartar host had certain news that the king aforesaid was coming against him with so great a force, he waxed uneasy, seeing that he had with him but 12,000 horsemen.. Nevertheless he was a most valiant and able soldier, of great experience in arms and an excellent captain ; and his name was Nasr-uddin. His troops too were very good, and he took every measure for his own defence and that of his army. And why should I make a long story of it? The whole force of the tartars, consisting of 12,000 well.mounted horsemen, advanced to relieve the enemy in the Plain of the Vochan, and there they waited to give them battle. And this they did through the good judgement of the excellent Captain who led them ; for hard by that plain was a great wood, thick with trees. And so there in the plain the Tartars awaited their foe, Let us then leave discoursing of them a while ; we shall come back to them presently ; but meanwhile let us speak of the enemy.

After the king had halted long enough to refresh his troops, he resumed his march, and came to the plain of Vochan, where the Tartars were already in order of battle. And when the king’s army had arrived in the plain, and was within a mile of the enemy, he caused all the castles that were on the elephants to be ordered for battle, and the fighting men to take up their post on them, and he arrayed his horse and his foot with all skill, like a wise king he was. And when he had completed all his arrangements he began to advance to engage the enemy. The tartars, seeing the foe advance, showed no dismay, but came on likewise with good order and discipline to meet them. And when they were near and nought remained but to begun the fight, the horses of the tartars took such fright at the sight of the elephants that they could not be got to face the foe, but always swerved and turned back; whilst all the time the king and his forces, and his elephants, continued to advance upon them.

And when the tartars percieved how the case stood, they were in great wrath, and wist not what to say or do; for well enough they saw that unles they could get their horses to advance, all would be lost. But their captain acted like a wise leader who had considered everything beforehand. He immediatly gave orders that every man should dismount and tie his horse to the trees of the forest that stood hard by, and that then they should take to their bows, a weapon that they know how to handle better than any troops in the world. They did as he bade them, and piled their bows stoutly, shooting so many shafts at the advancing elephants that in a short space they had wounded or slain the greater part of them as well as of the men they carried. The enemy also shot at the tartars, but the tartars had the better weapons, and were the better archers to boot.

And what shall I tell you? Understand that when the elephants felt the smart of those Arrows that pelted them, like rain, they turned tail and fled, and nothing on Earth would induce them to turn and face the tartars. So off they sped with such a noise and uproar that you could have trowed the world was coming to an end. And when then too they plunged into the wood and rushed this way and that, dashing their castles against the trees, bursting their harness and smashing and destroying everything that was on them.

So when the Tartars saw that the elephants had turned tail and could not be brought to face the fight again, they got to horse at once and charged the enemy. And then the battle began to rage furiously with sword and mace. Right fiercely did the two hosts rush together and deadly were the blows exchanged. The king’s troops were far more in number than the tartars, but they were not of such metal, nor so inured to war; otherwise the tartas who were so few in number could never have stood against them. Then might you see smashing blows dealt and taken from sword and mace ; then might you see knights and horses and men-at-arms go down; then might you see arms and hands and legs and heads hewn off ; and resides the dead that fell, many a wounded man, that never rose again, for the sore press there was. The din and uproar were so great from this side and from that, that God might have thundered and no man would have heard it. Great was the medley, and the dire and parious was the fight on both sides ; but the tartars had the best of it.

In an ill hour indeed, for the king and his people, was that battle begun, so many of them were slain therein, and where they had continued fighting till midday the king’s troops Could stand the tartars no longer ; but felt that they were defeated, and turned and fled. And when the tartars saw them routed they gave chase, and hacked and slew so mercilessly that it was a piteous sight to see. But after pursuing a while they gave up, and returned to the wood to catch the elephants that had run away, and to manage this they had to cut down great trees to bar their passage. Even then they would not have been able to take them without the help of the king’s own men who had been captured, and knew better how to deal with the beasts than the tartars did. The elephant is an animal that hath more wit than any other ; but in this way at last they were caught, more than 200 of them. And it was from this time forth that the Great Khan began to keep numbers of elephants (Yule “The Book of Ser Marco Polo” II. 99) “

I hope that if it isn't reliable info for the mod at least I hope that you had enjoyed it.

[Lux_Aeterna]

Hi again, ok this is the post about a note found later in the book "History of Burma" by G.E. Harvey. In which the battle described in the last post (Battle of Ngasaynggtan) is reviewed historically. So here is the transcription of the note made by the author :

“Ngasaynggtan 1277.- Marco Polo catches the spirit of it all, but his details nedd modification. Narathihapate never took the field in person. Nasr-Udin, the provincial governor, was not present, but he took part in the great drive down to kaungsin alter the battle. The battle was not at the plain of Vochang (Yungch’an) , seventy miles N.E. of the actual site, but at a plain in the Taping valley near Kanngai, in the Yingch’ang prefecture. The burmese never got beyond the Kanngai area. Ngasaunggyan may be a corruption of Nangsung, the old name for Nantien near Kanngai. There is now a Ngasaunggyan near Bhamp andi t may have been stockaded Turing the subsequent fighting, but it os not the scene of the great battle.

As the burmese account makes the enemy nearly all horse, they relied on arrows, it looks as if Marco Polo is right in saying that the 12,000 were tartars, for the tartars were the finest of cavalry, and their famous weapon was the bow, discharged while they were riding full gallop. The Burmese elephants wore a sort of armour, and slung to their sides were hollow bamboos containing scores of lances for the men in the howdahs to use. As for the capacity of the howdahs, Nicolo di Conti about 1435 mentions howdas c arrying eight to ten men, Caesar Frederick in 1368 mentions four man. "

[Yelü Dashi]

Thanks for this - it is very useful. More artwork/images would be great... as I am having trouble conceptualising the Mon, Pyu and Burmese as distinct from other SE Asians (in terms of clothing/armour etc)

[Lux_Aeterna]

I found some recreations of the frescoes in the stupas of Bagan, from the Archeological Museum of Bagan.

[Lux_Aeterna]

Hera are some symbols that can be used in the game, again found in the Archeological Museum of Bagan, an are reconstructions found in the frescoes.

[Lux_Aeterna]

Here is another one that I forgot to post.

[Lux_Aeterna]

I found one Burmese film that is set during the Bagan Period, however the movie is kind of lame, and It has many historical inaccuracies, low budget, laughable action sequences. But in some ways could be useful at some point. so here are some images and a youtube link.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxaSICf3ySI

[Alejandro Sanchez]

Here is another one that I forgot to post.

I really like this miniatute style! Do you have these pics in hight resolution?

[Yelü Dashi]

Thanks Luk - bad 'B' movies can often provide pretty decent inspiration for units.

EDIT:
Comment from youtube:

pathetic.. absolutely pathetic... Burmese film makers shouldn't look too high and far Advanced Tech War Movies from Hollywood. Just watch neighboring Thai movies (esp- Anti Burmese Movies, e.g. Bang Rajang, King Narasuan***, Queen Suriothai) how they decorate Burmese Imperial Palace, how they dress up the characters... Even Thai Films could show better Burmese costume and Palace... its sooo embarrassing...

Lux, any chance you could investigate this Thai movies that portray Burmese history ?