[Faction Discussion] Goryeo

[tokimitsu]

Korean Idol Girls

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Girls' Generation (2008) by Girls' Generation
Korean version


Kissing You (2008) by Girls' Generation
Korean Version



Into the New World (2007) Girls' Generation's 1st single
Korean Version



Genie(2009) by Girls' Generation
Korean Version



Gee (2008) by Girls' Generation
Korean Version



Chocolate Love (2009) by Girls' Generation
Korean Version




Oh! (2010) by Girls' Generation
Korean Version



Run Devil Run (2010) by Girls' Generation
Korean Version

[tokimitsu]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Fire (2009) by 2NE1
Korean Version



I Don't Care (2009) by 2NE1
Korean Version



Mr. / Wanna (2009) by Kara
Korean Version

[Wundai]

Here its okay to post that stuff(for me)... fortunatly

I had to delete all of it on the Dev Forum.
Better to keep it here

hey Kim See Wan

[sgawara84]

안녕하십니까 . 한국의 kensai 입니다.
모드개발에 참여하고 싶네요. TATW모드의 서브모드로 sgawara add-on 을 만들었습니다. 지금은 사정이 있어 클로즈 했구요.
무엇부터 시작해야 할지 기대되네요 ^^

[STELLover]

I sent you a request PM Sgawara

[tokimitsu]

안녕하십니까 . 한국의 kensai 입니다.
모드개발에 참여하고 싶네요. TATW모드의 서브모드로 sgawara add-on 을 만들었습니다. 지금은 사정이 있어 클로즈 했구요.
무엇부터 시작해야 할지 기대되네요 ^^

환영합니다~
Yalu한테 메일 보냈으니까 아마 님한테 메일 보낼 거에요
이미 갔나? ㅋㅋㅋㅋ

제가 만든 고려 유닛 이미지 컨셉들은 디벨로퍼 포럼-> 그래픽/아트워크 게시판 -> 고려 유닛 프리뷰&로스터 디벨롭먼트 게시판에 있어요.
혹시 고려 유닛 컨셉 이미지에 의문나는 사항 있거나 하면 거기 게시판에 한글로 올려주시거나, 메일로 물어봐 주세요.


그럼 열심히 해봅시다^^

[yevon]

some Korea's armor I searched out, hope it can be usefull:

[tokimitsu]

These Korean drama videos are the story about the famous seige warfare in Ansi Castle of Goguryeo(old Korea) vs. Tang(old China) in A.D.645.

Defense side is Goguryeo Korea vs. Attack side is Tang China.

This story differs from AUH's era, but these videos show us some typical aspects of traditional East Asian siegewarfare, I think.

I hope these are useful.


Intro:

Li Shimin, the second Emperor(太宗 Taizong) of Tang唐 Chinese Empire, conquered Korean Goguryeo高句麗 Kingdom's territory with 300,000 of his Tang Army in A.D.645.

He took several big border cities of Goguryeo in Manchuria Liadong with blitz tatics.

Ansi Castle was the last boder fortress city of Goguryeo and had resisted severely for 3 months against 300,000 of Tang army.

After Goguryeo army defeated Tang in several seige battles, Chinese Emperor schemed a new tactic to turn the tide of war decisively.

That was constructing the artifitcial dirt hill which is higher than Ansi Castle's wall so that make easy Tang army to attack the fortress.

Yang Manchun, the Goguryeo general of Ansi Guardians, had to deal with this enormous and reckless tactic of Tang army.

These videos are about this story.

Plz enjoy videos in order from top to bottom.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Wundai]

Thats what we wanna see! Traditional stuff

[Qarama]

i remember there was a korean tv serial where the Koreans were allies with the Turks against the Tang chinese.

[MeinKaiser]

Great! stuff

Can't wait

[jebusrocks]

Pls do NOT confuse Goryeo with Goguryeo. Many Koreans do, however, if u ever saw the tv series Tae Jo Young (a VERY romantic portrayal of Goguryeo), u will notice that Goguryeo military actually transforms intself in Balhae, not Silla (which Goryeo takes its roots from). Though parts of Balhae culture was mixed with Goryeo, Balhae actually formed a confederate of Manchurian (Khitan) tribes.

Goryeo was NOT a militaristic kingdom, especially in comparison to Goguryeo. Like the Joseon, they were not dependent on their military and was heavy on social aspects, diplomacy, and trade than dealing through military campaigns. This was due to the fact that Korea was around two huge nations: Manchurians (Jerchens, Khitans, etc. etc.) and China (Song, Han, Wei, etc. etc.). It was simply easier to stick with the powerhouses rather wage a war against them.

Of course, Goryeo came from a military uprising, and though they did not like war, did not mean that they never waged them. Goryeo's military was dependent almost entirely on its militia, not a professional army like some ppl here think. That is why Goryeo had great troubles against the Khitan, and only won using scorched earth policies. Yoon Gwan (1100) was the first Goryeo official to build a standardized Goryeo army, Called the 별무반. The Moo Dan was comprised heavily on infantry, again mostly militia. Their so-called regular army was generally comprised of local police forces, though they were given training on warfare. Of their infantry,the Goryeo bowmen were by far the most excelled and feared, mainly due to the fact that neighboring kingdoms (other than China) did not use archers as effectively as Goryeo did.

Goryeo was known mostly for their engineers, not their heavy cavalry or infantry. It was believed that Goryeo engineers would be able to build a fortress without the enemy even realizing it. This also included their navy; one of the strongest of its time due to the quick production rate and durability of the ships. Militarily, Goryeo is most well known for the 천리장성 a series of fortresses and walls spanning a thousand li, effectively defending Goryeo from outside invaders until the arrival of the Mongols. Goryeo was also known for their development of gunpowder. The 신기천 is basically like the hwacha, which is to come to play in the Imjin Wars. These rocket launchers proved to be of great use against the Jerchens and in naval battles.

Goryeo did not use heavy cavalry as heavily as Goguryeo did. Their heavy cavalry was too few in numbers and too expensive that they were practically obsolete against Khitan armies (which numbered in the hundreds of thousands); thus was the reason why they stuck to militias.

Also, really? Using pictures from dramas like Ju Mong and all these other dramas on Goguryeo? Goryeo underwent heavy cultural changes and these dramas are so inaccurate in showing traditional clothes its not even funny. Their portrayal of military attire ok... but using photos from Taehwansaseengee is just obsurd... do i have to remind people that the drama is a FANTASY-FICTIONAL drama?

If u are gonna show them dramas, at least choose ones on the right time frame....

[Yelü Dashi]

Thanks for your input. We are well aware of the history of Korea, and would not confuse the dynasties. We'd be pretty stupid to do that. I can correct you though, as to say Balhae/Bohai became the Liao (Khitan) dynasty is way off the mark. The Khitans comprehensively devasted the Balhae.

I can also speak for the team (as I am a mod leader) we have not based any of our units off fantasy concepts. There is a lot of stuff in this thread and NONE of it is official in anyway, it is simply a forum for discussion/ideas. We hope you'll be happy when we come to preview it.

You mentioned Goryeo lacked heavy cavalry, I realise infantry make up the bulk/backbone of the Korean forces at this time, but was there nothing approaching the fabled fully armoured cataphract-ish gae-ma cavalry ? Or is this a mix up between eras ? It is my understanding that heavy cavalry was still quite significant in the Korean military even in the 12th century.

[jebusrocks]

I can also speak for the team (as I am a mod leader) we have not based any of our units off fantasy concepts. There is a lot of stuff in this thread and NONE of it is official in anyway, it is simply a forum for discussion/ideas. We hope you'll be happy when we come to preview it.

Yes I've seen some models from the forum (especially the Song) and they are very well done; I was very surprised to finally see some accurate portrayals of Eastern armies and I thank your community for doing justice

I was not criticizing the mod community, I'm sorry if I implied that, I just wanted to clear some misconceptions people seem to have by assuming Goryeo assimilated Goguryeo military attires and etc.

I can correct you though, as to say Balhae/Bohai became the Liao (Khitan) dynasty is way off the mark. The Khitans comprehensively devasted the Balhae.

The Liao "dynasty" came to influence Balhae AFTER its fall, not before. Most of the Manchurian parts of Balhae (which is almost the entire region) succumbed to various Khitan tribes. The Liao merely added the Dongdan (Balhae after Khitan conquest) as part of their Liao dynasty.

Most of the Balhae people stayed in Manchuria (which the Goryeo, or any Korean Kingdom, would never re-conquer) other than the nobles, and the seperation between Balhae and Goryeo came so significantly that Mongolians and Chinese considered them two different peoples.

You mentioned Goryeo lacked heavy cavalry, I realise infantry make up the bulk/backbone of the Korean forces at this time, but was there nothing approaching the fabled fully armoured cataphract-ish gae-ma cavalry ? Or is this a mix up between eras ? It is my understanding that heavy cavalry was still quite significant in the Korean military even in the 12th century.

Gae Ma Cavalry was used during Goguryeo times, not Goryeo. Even in Goguryeo, they were considered only for the elite and rarely used until Gwanggaeto decided to take advantage of rich resources he obtained through his conquests. For every five thousand soldiers, 500 tonnes of material (and not cheap iron either..) were needed and it simply wasnt effective enough to spend that much money.

The primary horses used by, Goguryeo were the 과하마. These horses were extremely small (like 1.3m) that they a person riding them can easily pass under an apple tree without ducking. These horses were great for the mountainous terrain as well as plain battles against other cavalry, and was used since the time of Jaoji Hwanung.

However, as the loss of former Korean lands up north, so went the 과하마. Now, not only did you have to equip even bigger horses using more materials, u no longer have the mines up north, and there goes your resources. So now Goryeo is stuck with getting these materials from the Khitan... who btw, are their enemies.

In short.... no, cavalry ceased to be a significant force within Goryeo.

[nbpal3000]

모드 정말 기대되네염! 힘내세염!!

[Wundai]

I completely disagree nbpal3000!

[James the Red]

Would it be safe to assume if Goryeo got those northern provinces back, they would be able to field some 'Gae Ma Cavalry' again?

[jimanji]

it might be more accurate to use 천추태후...if you guys havent used it for some reference yet....
Goryeo general Yang-Gyu implemented an anti cavalry weapon to counter Khitan's cavalry called gumcha (검차)
looked like this.http://blogfiles3.naver.net/data13/2...9-myunggyu.jpg
and i would have to agree with yelu in that there was still a heavy cavalry in Goryeo though they may have been called
something other than gaema cavalry because Joseon continued to have cavalry and Joseon could be said to be more
passive than Goryeo.
and by the way....jebu...ur picture is from shin-gi-jun, which is from Joseon, not Goryo...
way to criticize when you do the same mistake =_=

[S-te-Fan]

환영합니다~
Yalu한테 메일 보냈으니까 아마 님한테 메일 보낼 거에요
이미 갔나? ㅋㅋㅋㅋ

제가 만든 고려 유닛 이미지 컨셉들은 디벨로퍼 포럼-> 그래픽/아트워크 게시판 -> 고려 유닛 프리뷰&로스터 디벨롭먼트 게시판에 있어요.
혹시 고려 유닛 컨셉 이미지에 의문나는 사항 있거나 하면 거기 게시판에 한글로 올려주시거나, 메일로 물어봐 주세요.


그럼 열심히 해봅시다^^

Me too!

[Deevil's Whisper]

The "Goryeo", the name of Goryeo Kingdom, was came from
the ancient Korean Kingdom of "Koguryeo".

Koguryeo ---------> Koryeo (Goryeo) ; middle pronunciation of 'gu' was omitted.

The Kingdom of Koguryeo had existed from B.C.1st century to A.D.7th with Huge territory of Manchria and Northern Korean peninsula.
The capital was Pyeong-Yang ; the capital city of North Korea of today.

Gae-ma Cavalry, the Heavy Cavalry just like Kataphracts of Persia, was main millitary power.

The Kingdom had dominated hegemony of the North-East Asia from A.D.5th century to 7th.
So, Koguryeo always strived for supremacy with Unified Chinese Dynasty ; especially Sui and Tang.

So, 10th century's Goryeo Kingdom did regard itself as the Descendant kingdom of the ancient Kingdom Koguryeo and had a will to recover Northern territory of ancient Koguryeo, especially Manchuria.

Goryeo regarded the War for recovering northen territory as the Holy War. Because, Recovering the ancient nothern territory was the spirit of the national foundation.

So, Goryeo always had conflincations and fought severly with northern Horse-riding people ; Kitan, Jurchen and Mongol.

Koguryeo was found one of the prince who failed to gain the crown of Fuyu ( 扶余/凫臾/Buyeo) kingdom.
So unlike Silla kingdom (with Tang together, they conquered other 2 kingdoms: Koguryeo and Paekche, ), which defeated by Goryeo(and started to form the modern Koreans) in 935 AD, Koguryeo and Paekche(百济) were nations mainly with Fuyu people. Koguryeo had 4 capital cites that have found in the history, Wunu, Guonei, Wandu, Pyeong-Yang was the last one, after it lost most of its northern land.

However, back to the topic Goryeo, in 926 AD Khitan defeated Balhae kingdom, the successor of Koguryeo, and moved most of its people in 928AD, so Goryeo shows interest to the empty lands that south of Yalu river(압록강) , and become desirable to get them by using its military power. No argue that the Goryeo army was not that stronge at the time, but they succeed to get the lands by diplomacy which I agree with jebusrocks.