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Thread: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

  1. #21

    Default Re: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

    Goguryeo fought of Sui and Tang against overwhelming odds and never made peace treaty on the invader's terms.
    That just reminds one of how Silla (the previous major Korean Kingdom) screwed the Chinese when they conquered the peninsula.
    Who cares if we don't learn from History, its bloodly interesting.

    Too much weird stuff happens for god not to exist

    Ladies like superior firepower literally and metaphorically

    England>Scotland and rest of the world, only the Welsh come even close.

  2. #22
    STELLover's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

    Quote Originally Posted by Tail End Charlie View Post
    That just reminds one of how Silla (the previous major Korean Kingdom) screwed the Chinese when they conquered the peninsula.
    He he, well sort of- we take a lot of pride from many variou victories- The reson why many pre-modern Korean kingdoms failed or lost was because of internal conflicts like rebellions and political right-left clashes.

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  3. #23
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    Default Re: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

    THIS IS ANOTHER SUMMARY OF MY TWO MONTH FREE TIME RESEARCH ON THE FACTION GORYEO

    Goryeo: Unit Review
    Sources Used

    REF 1Park, Gong Ji "Goryeo- A military Power" SangJin Editorial pg(344-451) (c) 2003

    REF 2Kim, Peter "Goryeo-Sui Wars" Knowledge Base (2001) Last Used (2009 3/9) http://www.knowbase.com/history/Korean_Penninsula/goryeo_sui_wars/129934.htm

    MILITARY: Compared to Vanilla- Reflects much of England, but also Holy Roman Empire

    Strengths:
    -Good Heavy, and Light Infantry with early Spearmen Support (Ref 1)
    -Good Professional Archers (Ref 2 trained from early age from hunting) good militia archers and infantry
    - Medium efficient calvary, but very advanced and expensive

    Weakness:
    - Lacks good Calvary variety and availability
    - Lacks professional Asian troops



    Level One- Lowest Settlement Level and Basic Units in the Beginning
    (Village/Town/Motte and Baily)
    - Goryeo Peasant Spearmen
    - Goryeo Peasant Archers
    - Goryeo Peasant Archer Militia

    Level Two- Lowly developed Settlement Level Stable Units
    (Large Town/Wooden Castle/Castle)
    - Goryeo Spearmen
    - Goryeo Light Sergeants
    - Miltia Auxillary Archers
    - Min-Byeong Calvary
    - ....minor siege equipment

    Level Three- Average Settlements. Military Powerhouse
    (City/Castle/Fortress)
    - Goryeo Armored Spearmen
    - Goryeo Regimental Infantry
    - Goryeo Regimental Archer
    - Gae-Ma Heavy Calvary
    - Goryeo Armored Guardsmen
    - Chi-Ma (calvary)
    - Goryeo Horse Archers
    - .....and siege units

    Leval Four- Advanced Settlements Powerful and Special Units- AOR.
    (Large City/Fortress/ early Citadel)
    - Dismounted Gae-Ma Swordsmen
    - Goryeo Capital Guard
    - Soo-Goong Heavy Archers
    - Armored Go-Gae Calvary
    -.....Gum-Cha (similar to a multi-firing balista)

    Level Six- Fully Advanced Settlements- AOR units
    - Dismounted Ko-Gae Spearmen
    - Hae-Mi Horse Archer




    Edit- I have included a lot of historical units- however I failed to provide visual support. Some previous posts include some minor resemblance of many of the units included here, as well as in the Dev Forums. I will try to hunt for more visual aids.

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  4. #24
    STELLover's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

    I think there was some gunpowder units and siege equipment as well- I will work on that

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  5. #25
    James the Red's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

    Wow, Korea gonna be awesome to play as.

    For a while I thought Korea was just a generic faction with nothing special in terms of military except for ships and siege weapons.

    I love learning about History, its great.

  6. #26
    Marcion's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

    Quote Originally Posted by STELLover View Post
    - Min-Byeong Calvary
    - Gae-Ma Heavy Calvary
    - Chi-Ma (calvary)
    - Soo-Goong Heavy Archers
    - Armored Go-Gae Calvary
    - Hae-Mi Horse Archer
    Mind explaining what all these are?

  7. #27
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    Default Re: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcion View Post
    Mind explaining what all these are?
    Well- its hard to specify the specific definitions since they were encrypted Chinese they used Long time Ago

    Go-Gae- like mentioned before is a Heavy Calvary Unit renowned as fierced Warriors dating back to 20AD. They are usually like Armored Kataphracts- or can be used as Bodyguards.

    Gum-Cha- I though I explaned. I forgot the name of the siege weaponry, but uses gunpower to fire multiple spears or ballistas at the enemy. Especially effective against infantry

    Gae-Ma- Its a generic term for armored knights used in battle. If you want some sort of reference- you can refer to it as the Feudal Knights like in Medieval

    Min-Byeong- Min means civilian, and Byeong is military: Militia. They are militia calvary. Usually lightly armored

    Chi-Ma- They are Korean Auxillaries. They are usually northern nomads renowned as horse riders and wandereres called to service usually as mercenaries. During the Sui conflict they were usued to flank the Sui army in the Battle of the 2 Rivers

    Soo-Goong- They are like Royal Guards to protect the King. In Goryeo army Formation- they will usually consist of a body of infantry and calvary and archers at the flanks while the King may stay at the center. Archers placed infront of the king were usually the best. They were also special missile units to defend the Royal Palace. They were trained in Archery from the age of 14 Ref 1

    Hae-Mi- Its actually a name I made up but resembles the Unit very likely. They are actually part of the regimental army- the main army of Goryeo besides Gae-Ma calvary. Nobles skilled in Archery fond of using a horse

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  8. #28

    Default Re: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

    Find another interesting infantry unit and special army unit.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byeolmuban

    Some sort of special military force consisting of infantrymen, calvary, and warrior monks to conquer Jurchen lands.

  9. #29

    Default Re: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

    interesting find RoyalGuard, though the wiki entry seems a bit dubious - what is the source ? Thats the first time I've heard of Korean warrior monks, and 'taking over the Jurchen' :hmmm: ?

  10. #30

    Default Re: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

    Perhaps one of the other members can fill in on the history. Typing in "Byeolmuban" into google returns with the same source, but typing in other key words brings this up:

    http://www.san.beck.org/3-10-Koreato1875.html#3

    When the Jurchens invaded Koryo in 1104, an army of 170,000 was organized that even included a unit of Buddhist monks. Three years later Yun Kwan led the Koryo army that routed the Jurchen forces at Chongp'yong. After continuing Jurchen attacks and diplomatic pressure, jealousy toward Yun Kwan at the Koryo court resulted in the return of the nine forts region to the Jurchens.

  11. #31

    Default Re: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambyeolcho

    Sambyeolcho is goryo special forces
    (I Can not Speak English)

  12. #32
    STELLover's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

    Okay this is what

    The SamByeolCho is like the previous posts, is a elite regiment of experienced troops who were individually funded and equipped by wealthy nobles. They won many battles and regarded as elite Goryeo troops- but the fact that it was not a national army, but rather an army formed by nobles- I decided not to include it

    In case of Byeol Mu Ban- I was going to include it because they were a important part of the Goryeo army while sharing some characteristics regarding army background, but I need more research. Maybe- if the unit is included, it will be a elite unit and AOR as well

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  13. #33
    tokimitsu's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

    Quote Originally Posted by STELLover View Post

    Gum-Cha- I though I explaned. I forgot the name of the siege weaponry, but uses gunpower to fire multiple spears or ballistas at the enemy. Especially effective against infantry
    Mr.STELLover
    You've studied Very well about Korean history and millitary.
    Paying my regards to you, I expect your good job in making AUH.

    Well, Is that your explanation about Gum-Cha?

    Would you mind if I modify a part of your explanation about Gum-Cha?

    That explanation I quoted is about Hwa-Cha, I think.

    "uses gunpower to fire multiple spears or ballistas at the enemy. Especially effective against infantry " ---> Yes! This explanation is for Hwa-Cha, not for Gum-Cha!!
    Hwa-Cha(火車) means "Fire Wagon".
    And Hwa-Cha was invented in A.D.15C (A.D.1448) in Joseon Dynasty of Korea.
    In the Age of Goryeo Dynasty(A.D.10C~14C), there was no Hwa-Cha.

    However, Gum-Cha existed at that time of Goryeo.
    Gum-Cha(劍車) means "Sword Wagon" that had many spears attached on it. It was very useful to fight against enemy's Heavy Cavalries.
    In the ancient hystoric document of "Goryeo-Sa(History of Goryeo)", there is description that Goryeo Heavy Infantry were able to defeat the large number of Kitan heavy cavalries by pushing Gum-Cha violently against them when 300 thousands of Kitan Army invaded Goryeo in A.D.993. It was used in the battle field, not in the seige warfare.

    There are obvious differences between Gum-Cha and Hwa-Cha.
    Gum-Cha is one of the charging and assaulting field weapons, also non-ranged engines.
    And spears are fixed on Gum-Cha. That is, Gum-Cha is not the artillary.
    But, Hwa-Cha is not only an artillary weapon but also a ranged engine.

    I attached the images of Gum-Cha and Hwa-Cha below this post.
    I hope these would be good guides.
    So sorry that my English is very poor.....
    Last edited by tokimitsu; March 15, 2009 at 05:20 PM.

  14. #34
    Augustus Lucifer's Avatar Life = Like a beanstalk
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    Default Re: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

    Indeed, a common misconception I imagine. We have discussed the Gumcha in the development fora before, though it will likely become more pertinent when development of the Goryeo roster begins. The way engines work in Total War may or may not lend themselves to the use of the Gumcha. One thing we feel quite certain about, is that if we include it, the AI will not use it properly since the game does not really have classification for non-ranged engines. We will have to trick it in some way to make the AI use it, and make it not an engine, which could be very difficult. There's a lot of factors to work out, suffice it to say that engines for siege and field battles are part of our goals, but some are more lofty goals than others due to their nature(the same is applicable to the flamethrowers fired off walls, since units on ladders can't be attached which is how they are depicted).

  15. #35
    tokimitsu's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

    P.S.

    The 1st image(Gum-Cha 1) is the illustration of Gum-Cha in Korean ancient book. A vertical plank on the wagon is the wooden shield decorated by the bronzed-monster mask in front side of it. This shield protected the infantrymen pushing this Gum-Cha from the raid of enemy cavalries. Infantrymen pushing the Gum-Cha could hide themselves behind this shield of Gum-Cha.

    The 2nd image(Gum-Cha 2) is CG of Gum-Cha. 2 or 3 Goryeo infantrymen charged pushing one Gum-Cha at the enemy cavalry by gripping handles behind the shield. Hundreds of Gum-Cha hit the attacking enemy cavalries like a ton of bricks in single line making a long and huge blockade in the battle field. Enemy horses were frightened by multiple spears of Gum-Cha charging at them. Gum-cha was used to frighten or attack the horses of cavalry and to diminish the shock power of enemy cavalries.

    The 3rd image(Hwa-Cha 1) is real Hwa-Cha, not reloaded. The innumerable small holes on the wagon are the multiple ballistas to reload large number of arrows in them. In one Hwa-Cha, about 100 of arrows are reloaded at a time. Each arrow has one gunpowder keg attached below on it.

    The 4th image(Hwa-Cha 2) is the capture of firing Hwa-Cha. Each arrow were ignited one and all on the same principle of dynamite. When the fire reaches at each gunpowder keg, hundreds of Arrows fly away from each Hwa-Cha at once with lightning speed. They are fired with the gunpower and driving force of gunpowder just like multi-missile rockets.
    When Japanese Army invaded in 1592, Korean(Joseon) Army used this siege weapon very effectively. For example, 40 of Hwa-Cha worked very nice and very effectively that only 3,400 of Korean guards and millitia could defeated 30,000 of Japanese Army in the siege warfare in mountain fortress of Haeng-Ju in 1592.
    Last edited by tokimitsu; March 16, 2009 at 03:59 PM.

  16. #36
    tokimitsu's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

    probobly be a help....

    http://jeongbyeon.culturecontent.com/

    Last edited by tokimitsu; March 15, 2009 at 03:32 PM.

  17. #37
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    Default Re: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

    Quote Originally Posted by tokimitsu View Post
    A nice link. I of course can't read it, but just randomly clicking around it looks like some good models of weapons and armor, as well as perhaps concepts for agents such as diplomats.

  18. #38
    tokimitsu's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

    1st - King of Goryeo (formal dress for the ceremony)
    2nd - King of Goryeo (Dress of the latter period)
    3rd - Queen of Goryeo (formal dress for the ceremony)
    4th - Noble Suject of Goryeo (formal dress)
    5th - Noble of Goryeo (one of the ordinary dress)
    6th - Millitary Captain of Goryeo (with chain mail)
    7th - Monk of Goryeo (formal dress)
    8th - Peasant
    9th - The humble or Slave


    And another Link

    http://goryeo.culturecontent.com/

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    Last edited by tokimitsu; March 17, 2009 at 03:23 AM.

  19. #39
    tokimitsu's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

    reference...

    1. Chain Mail of Goryeo Millitary
    2. Korean Royal Guard in Palace
    3. The ceremony of changing the Royal Guard in Palace
    (Please refer to these Upper Images ; Especially, the Armors and Helmets in image 2, 3 is supposed to be almost same as that of Goryeo)

    4. General in the latter period of Joseon Dynasty(after A.D.17C)
    5. Armors of Commander in Joseon
    6. Armors of Commander in Joseon
    7. Armors of Commander in Joseon
    8. Armors of Commander in Joseon

    9. The ceremony of changing the Royal Guard in Palace
    (Please refer to the way of carrying weapons in the Image 9,10. A Moon Blade, a Bow (including Arrows), and a Sword ; These 3 weapons were Full Arms of Royal Guard. It was Almost same as Goryeo Royal Guard, the former age ; But Military Dress or Armor of Goryeo was different from that of Joseon as you see. So Please do not refer Militery Uniforms in Images of 4,5,6,7,8,9. Because these are about Joseon Military Uniform. Just I wanna introduce them...)

    10. Korean Royal Guards (Almost same as that of Goryeo ; Weapons and Uniforms, Armors)



    Goryeo Dynasty : A.D. 936(Unification of Korea) ~ 1392
    Joseon Dynasty : A.D.1392 ~ 1910

    Last edited by tokimitsu; March 16, 2009 at 05:41 PM.

  20. #40
    STELLover's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

    Hmm.. Yeah, I was trying to make a note of that- Gum Cha and Hwa Cha shared some similarities in that they were a supportive light artillery unit used to fire at the enemy formations whilst keeping distance- one example is like the great battle you listed.

    Thanks i'll change it

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