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Thread: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

  1. #201

    Default Re: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

    Quote Originally Posted by Yelü Dashi View Post
    Thanks very much IGdood - much appreciated.

    I had saved most of these images of my PC, but missed a few.

    Unfortunately, it seems most of this is 90% useless when it comes to accurate inspiration for Goryeo (tho the very first image has some accuracy) - most of this stuff from Joseon (i.e late 14th century onwards ). So I am really starting from scratch for Goryeo, using sources like the Mongol invasion of Japan scrolls (the 13th century ones), which seem to offer a reasonably accurate insight into the AUH period.

    Also, I will be using xman1717's brilliant illustrations (see the original hi-res images here) which again are mainly depicting Joseon troops, but he has created a decent handful that are Goryeo-era inspired:


    As you can see (and please don't tell the Koreans!) some of the troops actually look quite Song /Heian-era influenced stylistically, which does make sense when you think about it.

    I think we can successfully craft an interesting and unique roster from these renderings.

    What do you guys think ? Any other source material knocking around ? (and please no fake chainmail or brigadines).

    I understand there's a big lack of material regarding Goryeo material and what little exists is mostly derived from the Joseon or purely made up.

    I've actually never seen those illustrations before nor have I heard of the scrolls. I'm interested in looking at them.

    That one illustration with the archer and the spearman with the big rectangular shield seems to have been inspired by a certain Osprey illustration... interesting that the spearman has brigandine.

  2. #202

    Default Re: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

    Quote Originally Posted by IGdood View Post
    That one illustration with the archer and the spearman with the big rectangular shield seems to have been inspired by a certain Osprey illustration... interesting that the spearman has brigandine.
    Yeah, I've always felt that the guys in brigandine were Mongols, whereas the archer just wearing robes were Korean, but I may just have imagined that.

    If anyone out there has more accurate information on Goryeo now's the time to bring it forward, otherwise I will starting working on the units based on these images.

  3. #203

    Default Re: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

    Quote Originally Posted by Yelü Dashi View Post
    Yeah, I've always felt that the guys in brigandine were Mongols, whereas the archer just wearing robes were Korean, but I may just have imagined that.

    If anyone out there has more accurate information on Goryeo now's the time to bring it forward, otherwise I will starting working on the units based on these images.
    That's what I thought too. If I remember correctly brigandine was passed on to East Asian militaries via Mongol and Jurchen influence, but mostly Jurchen. They had some really comfortable-looking armor with the neck guards. What I find interesting is that in a lot of the pictures the Goryeo soldiers looked woefully underarmored...well at least the archers did.


    I took it on myself to screenshot xman1717's work and resize them to be bigger. Is it alright to post it here so others can see or is that not allowed?

  4. #204

    Default Re: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

    Absolutely. It's fine I think, and would be useful. His album is publicly accessible.

  5. #205

    Default Re: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

    Quote Originally Posted by Yelü Dashi View Post
    Absolutely. It's fine I think, and would be useful. His album is publicly accessible.

    Thanks! Should save many people a lot of clicking. I hope I got all the Goryeo-related images, I'm not too good in telling apart the armors.


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 














    Curved swords but no black and white clothing. Hard to tell






    That spearman should be backing up the poor archer instead of just standing there watching






  6. #206

    Default Re: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

    Thanks IGdood.

    First, second, fourth and fifth images are Joseon. You work this out by learning some Korean and checking the image tags

    고려 = Goryeo
    조선 = Joseon

    Image 11 is confusing as the tag says "Goryeo", but the troops look Joseon. It mentions the city here as Gaegyeong (Kaesong in N.Korea) so I suppose this could be when Yi Songgye overthrew Goryeo in 1392 and established the Joseon, he then moved the capital from Kaesong to Hanyang (modern-day Seoul) in 1394.

    Last two are Mongol invasion of Japan, so within Goryeo-era.

  7. #207

    Default Re: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

    Quote Originally Posted by Yelü Dashi View Post
    Thanks IGdood.

    First, second, fourth and fifth images are Joseon. You work this out by learning some Korean and checking the image tags

    고려 = Goryeo
    조선 = Joseon

    Image 11 is confusing as the tag says "Goryeo", but the troops look Joseon. It mentions the city here as Gaegyeong (Kaesong in N.Korea) so I suppose this could be when Yi Songgye overthrew Goryeo in 1392 and established the Joseon, he then moved the capital from Kaesong to Hanyang (modern-day Seoul) in 1394.

    Last two are Mongol invasion of Japan, so within Goryeo-era.
    Thanks for the advice!

  8. #208

    Default Re: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

    Someone posted a link to Illustrated Account of Goryeo in Korean. Recently, an English translation for the book came out and details what exactly Goryeo warriors wore.

    According to Xu Jing, the writer of this book, generals of Goryeo wore armor made of black leather, with iron inserted between it (the translator writes it as "buttons"). Patterned brocade is used to join the parts together so they form a seamless whole. From the waist down hang more than ten straps, each decorated with five colored embroidered flowers. On their left hangs a sword and a bow.

    It also says that even though warriors had helmets, they mostly left them hanging behind them.

  9. #209

    Default Re: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

    Quote Originally Posted by Kor1992 View Post
    Someone posted a link to Illustrated Account of Goryeo in Korean. Recently, an English translation for the book came out and details what exactly Goryeo warriors wore.

    According to Xu Jing, the writer of this book, generals of Goryeo wore armor made of black leather, with iron inserted between it (the translator writes it as "buttons"). Patterned brocade is used to join the parts together so they form a seamless whole. From the waist down hang more than ten straps, each decorated with five colored embroidered flowers. On their left hangs a sword and a bow.

    It also says that even though warriors had helmets, they mostly left them hanging behind them.
    Amazon is selling the book for a hefty price. If someone wants to buy it and post the illustrations I will be willing to contribute 15 pounds or 20 dollars. That's like 3-4 meals for me but worth it for hard-to-find Goryeo material. Xu Jing's eyewitness account should be reliable.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Chinese-Tra.../dp/0824856449


    Alternatively, one can use WorldCat to search for available copies at libraries closest to them. Unfortunately for me I will be in the process of moving place to place soon and wouldn't be able to loan a copy.

    Look for: A Chinese Traveler in Medieval Korea: Xu Jing’s Illustrated Account of the Xuanhe Embassy to Koryŏ



    I noticed whatever screenshots I have posted before of existing Goryeo assets from current Chinese mods are gone because the original website is gone. I reuploaded whatever I can find and will post here. Likely they may not be accurate but it would give Yelu Dashi something to work with perhaps.



    Screens from Shaoding (most recent build was from 2014, the creator is busy with real life)

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Strength: Decent archers
    Weakness: This roster is unfinished




    Goryeo Archers



    Goryeo Royal Guards



    Goryeo Horse Archers (Joseon placeholder)



    Goryeo Spearmen



    Goryeo General's Bodyguard







    Screens from River of Blood (last build in 2013-2014, the creator is also busy with real life)
    Joseon placeholders for some units, but there's one model they made specifically for this mod.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Yongho (Dragon Tiger) Troop





    Byeolmuban



    Monk Archers



    Sinbogun



    Jeongnogun




    Balhwagun



    Gyeongsan Archers




    Gyeonggi Spearmen



    Eungyanggun



    Don't know the translated name here



    Singigun


    Pyongyang Horse Archers








    The Road (Actually being worked on, latest build from 2017. A remake of River of Blood)

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Sinbogun



    Byeolmuban




    Goryeo Garrison Archers




    Garrison Infantry



    Singigun




  10. #210

    Default Re: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

    I'm currently in London at the moment and found a library carrying the text. I'll check it out the next weekend.

  11. #211

    Default Re: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

    Checked the book out. I've taken pics of the pages relevant to Total War and AUH and will send it to Yelu Dashi in PM when it finishes uploading.

    The military stuff I will post here, and the translator certainly wasn't kidding when he said that the author Xu Jing had quite the condescending and patronizing tone when it comes to describing the Koreans. I was disappointed that there were almost no pictures in the book, so whoever is doing the modeling and texturing will have to use the examples in the text and integrate it to the pictures I and other users have posted.

    If there are any Koreans here, please try not to be offended by Xu Jing's tone at some points of the text.


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 























    Last edited by IGdood; July 08, 2017 at 09:06 AM.

  12. #212

    Default Re: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

    Found 3 "concept art" drawings on the Wanmod forums.

    Goryeo Banners
    Source: Mongolian Scrolls


    Armor 1
    Source: Statue located at Kaesong at the tomb of King Kongmin, 31st ruler of the Goryeo Dynasty



    Armor 2
    Source: Goryeo Painting (?)

  13. #213

    Default Re: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

    Many artist depictions of Goryeo generals I have seen show their helmets with wings. The Mongol Invasion of Japan scrolls also depict Goryeo soldiers with wing like aesthetics on their helms as well (I wondered whether that was fur or not). Was this an influence from the Song Dynasty?

  14. #214

    Default Re: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

    To my amazement Shaoding will receive a 1.1 update. Date unknown. Changes include plenty of new armor upgrade models for the units.

    However, fans of Goryeo (myself included) will be glad that the faction will finally be getting 1 new model.

    Goryeo General's Bodyguard:







    One may recognize the design to be based on the middle one of the top row:



  15. #215

    Default Re: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

    Interesting news. Do you have any link to chinese forum because from wanmod I am being redirected to domod.org where I don't see any information about the mod.
    Rus 2 Total War 2.01 - Unofficial English translation released
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ation-released
    Buff and Shine submod for Broken Crescent
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...tment-and-more
    My submod for Baltic Campaign - Battle for the Baltic
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...altic-Campaign

  16. #216

    Default Re: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

    Quote Originally Posted by vsivak View Post
    Interesting news. Do you have any link to chinese forum because from wanmod I am being redirected to domod.org where I don't see any information about the mod.
    https://tieba.baidu.com/p/5381836223

  17. #217
    tokimitsu's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

    Hi, long time no see, guys

    I visit here for a while, and It's been a very long time I didnt visit this forum.
    And seems that I was kicked out of the Developer's forum. OMG. Then, how did you guys deal with what I posted so my materials there?

    If you need my help, please inform me, then I would like to provide updated materials about Goryeo units and Japanese units to you, as like I did for the team as a Goryeo faction & Japanese faction researcher a few years ago.

    I forgot how to insert the images that I have in my laptop.

    I hope there would be a response from you, team members.
    Last edited by tokimitsu; September 18, 2018 at 10:47 PM.
    My real name is Kim See-Wan " 金 時 完 "

  18. #218

    Default Re: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

    Quote Originally Posted by tokimitsu View Post
    Hi, long time no see, guys

    I visit here for a while, and It's been a very long time I didnt visit this forum.
    And seems that I was kicked out of the Developer's forum. OMG. Then, how did you guys deal with what I posted so my materials there?

    If you need my help, please inform me, then I would like to provide updated materials about Goryeo units and Japanese units to you, as like I did for the team as a Goryeo faction & Japanese faction researcher a few years ago.

    I forgot how to insert the images that I have in my laptop.

    I hope there would be a response from you, team members.

    I think the mod is progressing extremely slowly; it would probably be best if you post the images here since the dev forum is kind of dead

  19. #219

    Default Re: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

    Hi Tokimitsu,
    Happened to find the site while researching Goryeo military. Have some translation problems so would like you help me with it. The Korean in this post is what I get on wiki. (I'm Chinese)
    In my opinion Goryeo should have units including:
    capital troops 六卫二军,六卫takes defend of capital which should be heavy infantry, 二军are bodyguards of the king, including龙虎军and 鹰扬军, presumably heavy cavalry &elite infantry;
    elite field army Sambyeolcho(三别抄삼별초), which are actually three kinds of units, 左别抄heavy infantry 右别抄archer and 神义军medium horse archer, with some melee merits;
    personal bodyguards of the house of Choe, 都房, unfortunately no more description found;
    mid tier professional armies 别武班 constructed by general Yun Gwan(尹瓘윤관), including 神骑军 medium melee cavalry 神步军 heavy infantry(pike/spear) 跳荡军 light charging swordsman 精弩军crossbowmen 梗弓军 archer 降魔军 warrior monks and 发火军 (no illustration in records, possibly flame throwing catapults based on name)
    花郎화랑noblesons with regular training, should be a good melee unit with high skill but no formation. Double swords recommended as weapon.
    regular police-like troops called一品军、保胜军、精勇军,among which 精勇军 is cavalry;
    Balhae and Khitan refugee auxiliaries referred to as 投化人;
    Other militias.
    Hopefully you can get these names into Korean and English counterparts. This message goes to whoever is in the dev team too.
    Above is what I have researched and found.
    In my opinion, Goryeo should have best foot archer and first class spear and sword infantry units. Cavalry should focus on handy medium cavalry (armored rider unarmored horse) while there's a limited number of heavy cav. With the peninsula itself I don't think Goryeo was able to raise many horses capable of carrying the weight of cataphract.
    As for armor, I think they use scale and lamellar rather than chainmail. Chainmail is in Jouseon Dynasty. Aside from prevailing Chinese style lamellar, Goryeo has its own style of scale armor. I assume that Goryeo uses scale a lot like nomads do because archery is the biggest source of damage in Korean warfare.
    Weapons should see wide use of pike, spear, glaive(guandao), bow and sword. Not much usage of blunt weapons suggests that there were not many heavily armored units.
    What I want to know in return is as following:

    1. What siege engines did Goryeo army use at the time? Since they were excellent fortress builders there should be some unique siege technologies that they developed too. Furthermore, I’d like to know what 发火军 exactly is. Since gunpowder was only introduced to Korea during Yuan dynasty, it cannot be a gunpowder unit like Hwacha.
    2. More information on Gum-cha: if it’s so effective against heavy cav there’s no reason Song didn’t use it widely against Jin. Any limits?
    3. The Chinese translation for Min-byeong cavalry, Chi-ma cavalry, Soo-goong heavy archers, Go-gae cavalry, Ko-gae spearmen, so I can research on them.
    4. I found out that Korea had a special cluster arrow which can be fired by hand-held bows, able to achieve a longer range but not much damage. What era was this kind of arrow developed?

  20. #220

    Default Re: [Faction Discussion] Goryeo

    Stumbled upon some more Goryeo stuff, both pre-Mongol and intra-Mongol


    https://blog.naver.com/PostView.nhn?...ntCategoryNo=0



    https://blog.naver.com/PostView.nhn?...ntCategoryNo=0








    Also been watching a new Netflix series called My Country. It takes place during the transition between Goryeo and Joseon. Seems legit.
    I mean, they even make a comment on straight vs curved swords!






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