Question about Macedon - Hypaspists vs. Agema Hypaspists

[htismaqe]

I don't understand these two units - the cost and abilities don't seem to be in sync.

Hypaspists
Melee 12
Missile 10
Charge 12
Defense 29
Cost 980
Upkeep 440
Bonus vs. Cavalry, Missile attack before charge, Excellent Morale, powerful charge, very good stamina, fast moving, can sap

Agema Hypaspists
Melee 11
Missile 10
Charge 6
Defense 28
Cost 1280
Upkeep 660
Bonus vs. Cavalry, Missile attack before charge, Excellent Morale, very good stamina, can sap

Is this a mistake? If not, why would anybody use the Agema Hypaspists?

[jakobh94]

Because it has 1 more HP than the normal Hypaspist ... This mean it can take alot more damage than the normal.

[htismaqe]

Holy crap, how did I miss that?

[RedFox]

I'm afraid the stats have changed a bit, but haven't been released yet. The latest stats are almost perfectly balanced cost wise.

type             greek hypaspist elite
dictionary       greek_hypaspist_elite      ; Greek Hypaspists
soldier          greek_hypaspist, 40, 0, 1.2, 0.3
officer          greek_standard
mount_effect     horse +4, elephant +2
attributes       sea_faring, very_hardy, hide_forest, can_sap
formation        1, 1.66, 2, 3.33, 4, square
stat_health      1, 0
stat_pri         11, 12, javelin, 40, 1, thrown, archery, piercing, spear,10,0.6
stat_pri_attr    prec, thrown, ap
stat_sec         13, 12, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,0.7
stat_sec_attr    light_spear, spear_bonus_4
stat_pri_armour  8, 16, 5, metal
stat_mental      16, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_cost        2, 980, 440, 80, 160, 980
ownership        seleucid, romans_senate, macedon, carthage

type             greek hypaspist agema
dictionary       greek_hypaspist_agema      ; Agema Hypaspists
soldier          greek_hypaspist_diadochi, 25, 0, 1.35, 0.3
officer          greek_standard
mount_effect     horse +1, elephant +2
attributes       sea_faring, very_hardy, hide_forest, can_sap, command
formation        1, 1.66, 2, 3.33, 4, square
stat_health      2, 0
stat_pri         11, 6, javelin, 40, 1, thrown, archery, piercing, spear,10,0.6
stat_pri_attr    prec, thrown, ap
stat_sec         12, 14, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 10 ,0.66
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  9, 13, 5, metal
stat_mental      18, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_cost        4, 1420, 660, 120, 240, 1220
ownership        macedon, romans_senate

Agema Hypaspists behave very differently. Sword attacks are by default much deadlier than spear attacks. Even when the spear has higher attack 13, it is still inferior to sword attack 12. Due to 2 hitpoints, Agema are extremely tough units, hence they also have less men and less armour. All in all, this agema unit can beat Polybian Triarii, which is quite something.

Hypaspists themselves are much cheaper, because tests showed that Polybian Principes wipe the floor with them..

[Spartan198]

Because it has 1 more HP than the normal Hypaspist ... This mean it can take alot more damage than the normal.

And because they're prettier...

[Dog Fart]

The few, the proud, the Agema Hypaspists I could never afford.

[aznflea]

i noticed the hypapist has fast moving. how do you make units march faster?

[Spartan198]

The few, the proud, the Agema Hypaspists I could never afford.

[RedFox]

The few, the proud, the Agema Hypaspists I could never afford.

1 Agema Hypaspist (1220 drachma) is always better than 3 Hoplite Levies (1650 drachma)...
Cost-wise, they can sometimes be a lot more useful. You just need to know when to use them - usually more than 1/2 units is pointless due to the small number of men. You need supportive units so your Agema won't get surrounded and killed like peasants.

[aznflea]

lol. agemas are too few in number lol.

would making a heavy unit light make them move faster?

[RedFox]

No, the speed is set in animation files. Modifying ground values has a global effect.

[jakobh94]

Agema Hypaspist (1220 drachma) is always better than 3 Hoplite Levies (1650 drachma)...

Have you tried surrounding the Agema with your levies? Im going to run a test ...

lol. agemas are too few in number lol.

hmmm... So than you would also think that elephant is to few in numbers eh?
Just saying: Agemas are waaaay better than other units and it wouldnt need anymore units.

[jakobh94]

You see, i have neaver used sheildwall, i think its clumsy... But what i've seen here, i am sure to be using it with all my units that can use it...
But since this is originally built for ALEX i cant really complain about this, but i shouldnt do it either if it was built on BI.

[RedFox]

Didn't realize shield wall could make such a huge difference..
The only fix for ALEX (since it doesn't support shield wall) for now is having hoplite's soldier radius 0.2 instead of 0.3 - that makes them stick together similar to shield wall.

[htismaqe]

You see, i have neaver used sheildwall, i think its clumsy... But what i've seen here, i am sure to be using it with all my units that can use it...
But since this is originally built for ALEX i cant really complain about this, but i shouldnt do it either if it was built on BI.

Holy ****, I knew it! No wonder my hoplites suck!

[Spartan 666]

Didn't realize shield wall could make such a huge difference..
The only fix for ALEX (since it doesn't support shield wall) for now is having hoplite's soldier radius 0.2 instead of 0.3 - that makes them stick together similar to shield wall.

how can this be changed? where is this "soldier radius" located?

[RedFox]

Default radius is 0.3 >>

dictionary       greek_hypaspist_agema      ; Agema Hypaspists
soldier          greek_hypaspist_diadochi, 25, 0, 1.35, 0.3

[jakobh94]

So now you will release different ALEX and BI patches?

And just to remind you, i think one of the reasons that my Militias won was because they pushed the Agema, in the beginning they weren't that close but in the end, the Agema were like 20 soldiers on were 5 would normaly be. So they ran. When i didnt use Sheildwall my Militias was scattered and the agema wasnt pushed around.

[TM Is Back]

He probably won't.

[RedFox]

There's no need to have different patches. This will all work on both exe's.