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Thread: Carthage/Rome

  1. #1

    Default Carthage/Rome

    I done a few tests playing on VH/VH as factions that should be in direct contention for land/power against Rome and Carthage

    Playing as Spain and Namibians and Rome i found Carthage to be to passive the same for Rome when i played as Gaul Greece,Carthage, Epirus i found Rome to sit in the land they start with.

    I know that there is a 45 turn building up period but by then Rome and Carthage are a dieing power.

    I realize that this is hard to balance for the modding team and you might have fix for this in mind already, I am just wondering if it is just me or do other people find this to ?

    The other factions i have tried seem to be fine. I find them difficult and that is fun!

    Keep up the great work guys

  2. #2
    Quinn Inuit's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Carthage/Rome

    Interesting. I haven't seen that problem with Rome--it tends to do a good job in some games, stagnate in some, and die in some. Carthage is a bit of a problem right now, but we're working on that for the next version.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Carthage/Rome

    I mentioned this in other thread, but Carthaginians only do well, if they succeed to take Aggrigento, otherwise they stagnate for a while, but sooner or later they start attacking Numidians ( or vice versa ). They almoust never expand in Spain, wich was, iirc, historically second important area ( due to the rich silver and gold mines in Iberia ). In RTR PE Carthaginians used to posess New Carthago, not only a large town with descent economy and trade, but also a missing link in the chane of their supply ways into Spain. Now they do posess only one settelment on the Iberian pennisula, wich is cut off from the rest of their empire, since Palma doesnīt really count untill it becomes a minor City, with trade bonis + recruitment center, to close the gap while Carthago Nova is rebell town.

    In my current campaign, Greeks even made a "mini" D-Day, trying to siege Thapsus, after they took Melite and overrun Lillibeum I was really suprised, where all the Carthaginians armys were...and then i saw, they were invading Numidians in Sahara...

    I could be wrong, but why not give Carthaginians at least a descent ( bit elite ) army in Sicily ( including the Sacred Band units, wich almost allways idle in Carthago City as garrison troops ) ? The gouverneur of Lillibeum mostly leaves the city towards the mainland, leaving 2 units of Liby Spearmen alone, wich means no resistance agains Greek or Roman raids without having a family member present.

    Also, while owning at least one colony in Spain, Carthaginians posess a bit to small army there, imo, so they canīt really expand and rival with Iberians for taking over Spain.

    Btw: those Caetary light cavalry units, spread everywhere as garrisons in carthaginian cities really donīt make sence for AI, since it never disbands any units. When i play Carthage, first thing i do is to get rid off those "denari eaters"

  4. #4
    Eat Meat Whale Meat
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    Default Re: Carthage/Rome

    Carthage, as with other widely spread factions, depends on losing its overseas possessions so it can concentrate on the mainland. If it loses Lilybaeum early, it can often overrun Africa in short order, them start penetrating Iberia. Similarly the loss of Tarentum and Croton helps the Greek cities not get distracted from their main task of beating down the Macs, and the Ptolemies benefit from losing their Anatolian possessions (as long as Pontus joins the fray against Big Blue). AI Rome may just not be able to cope with the situation that's been designed for players. Unless the player takes a couple of settlements immediately, they immediately fall into debt, and the cost-ineffective triarii compounds this. The player can solve this by disbanding the triarii and going straight for conquest, but the AI doesn't do this, and once it gets into debt, it can't get out.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Carthage/Rome

    I noticed the high upkeep caetrati cavalry as well - they were a major drain in the beginning turns of Carthage. Humans can manage them, but the AI is hardly the brightest kid in the room.

    I did some testing with Carthage a while ago and the crucial factor for them commiting to campaignig in Sicily was taking Agrigento early. In the current state of business they immediately besiege the city with their army in Sicily, the defendants sally after a turn or two and the carthaginians take back the sorry remnants of their forces back to Lilybeum and never look again to Sicily.

    OTOH, after I reduced the starting garrison of Agrigento by 2 or 3 hoplites (can be done in one of the "descr" files) Carthage manages to take the city and Sicily is anything but dull(especially if someone takes Messina with insufficient troops and it rebels to Rome the next turn ). On one test run I had the greeks push everybody out of the island, on another Carthage had no less than 5(!) generals(+ 2 already there) and two full stacks transferred to Sicily (and that's without the naval invasion trait, mind you).

    It also helps if you set the starting diplomacy stance between Carthage and the Greek Cities to war (historically true for Syracuse in 279 BC), but even if you do not, the greeks or the epirots make an assault on Melite soon enough.

    EDIT: @Pannonian
    In ExRm Epirus controls south Italy, not the Greek Cities as in RTR. Rome performance is varied, but without making specific tests, my impression is that Epirus gets more out of the cash bonus on Hard than the romans do.
    Last edited by Iskandar; January 02, 2009 at 01:03 PM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Carthage/Rome

    Been playing as the Brits today VH/VH. I must say, Its a very interesting game with the Brits trying to take the rebel cities in the UK takes tremendous resources.

    I have been trying many different factions using the toggle_fow to watch how the other factions get on, Specially Rome and Carthage and today Rome was out my borders by the time i had taken Scotland! first time i have seen Rome expand like that, Gaul was wiped out and the Germans pushed back into north Scandinavia.......bloody romans

  7. #7

    Default Re: Carthage/Rome

    Once the map and unit changes are in place, we plan on going faction by faction and analyzing their start point, unit cost, and unit maintenance. I did that for the barbarian factions. There's a thread about the barbarians here with updated files that are compatible with 3.3.4 but are beta since they're not fully tested.

    We decided to put the rest of the optimization on hold because the map and unit changes may conflict with the start point changes.

  8. #8
    Quinn Inuit's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Carthage/Rome

    Oh, I'd forgotten about those. Jamey, would you like me to integrate those into the new version?
    RTR Platinum Team Apprentice, RTR VII Team Member, and Extended Realism Mod Team Coordinator. Proud member of House Wilpuri under the patronage of Pannonian

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  9. #9

    Default Re: Carthage/Rome

    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn Inuit View Post
    Oh, I'd forgotten about those. Jamey, would you like me to integrate those into the new version?
    That was the plan, last I heard.

  10. #10
    Quinn Inuit's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Carthage/Rome

    Working on it now. I'm integrating PatricianS's changes, some of my own, and then yours. Then I have to clean up descr_strat to reflect the map changes. Don't expect to see much of me around here for awhile.
    RTR Platinum Team Apprentice, RTR VII Team Member, and Extended Realism Mod Team Coordinator. Proud member of House Wilpuri under the patronage of Pannonian

    The ExRM forum: come for the mod, stay for the Classical History discussions. Or vice versa.

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