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Thread: Roma Surrectum 2.0: Cimbri Faction Preview

  1. #121

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum 2.0: Cimbri Faction Preview

    Nice , as always, models (the Batavian infantry ,my favorites) and, by the way, strange people those celtic/germano cimbri .
    I watched the details in the shots.Nice "grass" in some particular areas.

  2. #122

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum 2.0: Cimbri Faction Preview

    Nice preview

    For those of you interested in the Suebi (proto-Germanic Sweboz) the following entry from Rives' commentary on Germania is quite illuminating:

    Who the Suebi were has been the subject of much discussion. Some have considered the name simply an ethnographic convenience, used by Graeco-Roman writers to lump together a number of separate tribes that in fact had little connection with one another; others have argued that it was originally a single tribe (usually identified with the Semnones) who through expansion and assimiliation of other groups became an amphictyony. More recent scholars have suggested that the term originally denoted not a tribe but a social category, the military bands that in the first century BC pressed westwards from the Elbe: these bands formed the core around which an actual tribe later developed. Archaeologically, there are fairly good reasons to associate the name with the Elbe culture complex: several of the tribes whom the sources regularly classify as Suebi, notably the Semnones, Langobardi, Marcomanni, and Quadi, are said to have inhabited areas in which the material culture clearly belonged to the Elbe group

    Rives: Tacitus, Germania

    I know my friend DaVinci has had an interest in the Cimbri since we started working together on the FRRE Team for a Marius-Sulla Campaign many moons ago.

    The Celto-Germanic debate about the Cimbri can never be definitely resolved, since neither the ancient sources (Posidonius F272, Strabo 7.2.1-2, Florus 1.38.1, Plutarch.Marius 11.5-7, Justin.Epit 38.4.15, Velleius Paterculus 2.12.2, Caesar B.G 1.33.4 etc) and the archaeology are conclusive.

    Moreover the connection between the migrating Cimbri and a northern Jutland homeland is not quite as certain as commonly believed. For example the archaelogical record doesn't appear to provide clear evidence for a mass migration in the late second century. Whilst the safe money is to go with Poseidonius/Strabo and to accept the northern Jutland origins of the Cimbri it is also probably wise to recognise much about the history of this nation is lost to us forever

  3. #123
    Arnspac's Avatar Miss You Calvin
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    Default Re: Roma Surrectum 2.0: Cimbri Faction Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by bucellarii View Post
    Nice preview


    I know my friend DaVinci has had an interest in the Cimbri since we started working together on the FRRE Team for a Marius-Sulla Campaign many moons ago.

    The Celto-Germanic debate about the Cimbri can never be definitely resolved, since neither the ancient sources (Posidonius F272, Strabo 7.2.1-2, Florus 1.38.1, Plutarch.Marius 11.5-7, Justin.Epit 38.4.15, Velleius Paterculus 2.12.2, Caesar B.G 1.33.4 etc) and the archaeology are conclusive.

    You forgot Tacitus and his famous translation by Thomas Gordon:

    In the same winding tract of Germany live the Cimbrians, close to the ocean; a community now very small, but great in fame. Nay, of their ancient renown, many and extensive are the traces and monuments still remaining; even their entrenchments upon either shore, so vast in compass that from thence you may even now measure the greatness and numerous bands of that people, and assent to the account of an army so mighty.

    Moreover the connection between the migrating Cimbri and a northern Jutland homeland is not quite as certain as commonly believed. For example the archaelogical record doesn't appear to provide clear evidence for a mass migration in the late second century. Whilst the safe money is to go with Poseidonius/Strabo and to accept the northern Jutland origins of the Cimbri it is also probably wise to recognise much about the history of this nation is lost to us forever
    Then the map of Ptolemaeus and statements by Cassius, Martial, Herodotus and others must be pure fiction.

    Damn I knew I couldn't trust those Roman historians. Just wasted six months on a fairy tale.
    Last edited by Arnspac; January 30, 2009 at 07:13 PM.
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  4. #124

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum 2.0: Cimbri Faction Preview

    Please don't be offended. The above post was meant to be observational, not critical and I apologise if it came over otherwise

    You are correct to point out I neglected to list Tacitus Germania 37.1, which is odd as a well-thumbed copy was on my desk as I typed the above

    I was merely pointing out although Greek and Roman writers from the Augustan period onwards associate the migrating Cimbri of the second century with the people of the same name encountered by Germanicus Drusus, there remains an on-going debate amongst modern scholars (summarised in the Rives commentary on the Germania) about precisely how the men of this expedition determined the association, how reliable ancient sources are regarding the ethnogenesis of nations and how archaeology might provide vital clues.

    I find these types of questions interesting because I'm not clever enough to think of them myself and as a result they help bring an added layer of interest to my own reading.

    Oh, and you most certainly haven't wasted six months of your life. How can reading the ancients be called that

    Anyway good luck with the Mod

    Regards

    buc
    Last edited by bucellarii; January 10, 2009 at 05:48 AM.

  5. #125

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum 2.0: Cimbri Faction Preview

    omg, its a joy to see such a great work...im w8ing keenly to install rs2 woaaaaaaa da best mod of rtw
    Historia est magistra vitae. - Cicero

  6. #126

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum 2.0: Cimbri Faction Preview

    Great Mod

  7. #127
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    Default Re: Roma Surrectum 2.0: Cimbri Faction Preview

    It is wonderful work! Amazing!
    The best barbarians i have ever seen!!!!!

  8. #128
    Arnspac's Avatar Miss You Calvin
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    Default Re: Roma Surrectum 2.0: Cimbri Faction Preview

    [quote=bucellarii;4246066]Nice preview

    The Celto-Germanic debate about the Cimbri can never be definitely resolved, since neither the ancient sources (Posidonius F272, Strabo 7.2.1-2, Florus 1.38.1, Plutarch.Marius 11.5-7, Justin.Epit 38.4.15, Velleius Paterculus 2.12.2, Caesar B.G 1.33.4 etc) and the archaeology are conclusive.

    Moreover the connection between the migrating Cimbri and a northern Jutland homeland is not quite as certain as commonly believed. For example the archaelogical record doesn't appear to provide clear evidence for a mass migration in the late second century. Whilst the safe money is to go with Poseidonius/Strabo and to accept the northern Jutland origins of the Cimbri it is also probably wise to recognise much about the history of this nation is lost to us forever
    Quote Originally Posted by bucellarii View Post
    Please don't be offended. The above post was meant to be observational, not critical and I apologise if it came over otherwise

    No offense taken.

    From The Cimbri Chronology;

    In Conclusion: The Cimbri, at least as far back as the latter part of the 2nd Century BC,
    but with persuasive evidence for a much earlier date (6th Century), resided in what is
    today Himmerland County, Jutland, Denmark. Some ultimately settled in the Vestfold
    area of Southeast Norway and perhaps Hordaland. The writings of Classical Greek and
    Roman authors make it clear despite their location in the Germanic north, they spoke a
    Celtic language related to Gaulish P-Celt, originated in the Celtic lands between Gaul and
    Moravia with prongs in Jutland as well as both sides of the Alps, and had a culture that
    was overwhelmingly Celtic. Their Celtic affiliation lasted until some time between the
    3rd and 6th Centuries AD when they lost their tribal identity subsequent to merging with
    the Danes. Archaeological data confirms that their culture was Celtic, with some of the
    most impressive Celtic finds in Europe coming from Himmerland. Genetic data points to
    a prototypic La Tene Central European Y-chromosome DNA marker (S28-R1b1c10) as
    being one key component of the genetic mix of the Cimbri. This marker links them to
    their Central European kinfolk (e.g., in Switzerland and Northern Italy), and their Danish
    and Norse Viking descendants in Eastern England, the Orkney Islands and elsewhere.

    Again, it is recognized that the details above will need to be amended, as new
    information becomes available, and sources must be added, but the major facts and most
    of the conclusions appear to rest on solid ground.

    Dr. David K. Faux January 2/08

    The mystery continues.
    Last edited by Arnspac; January 12, 2009 at 07:19 AM.
    Cu mândrie, under the Patronage of leif_erikson


    There is no disease I spit on more than treachery.

  9. #129

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum 2.0: Cimbri Faction Preview

    Yes, I first came across Faux two or three years ago and must say I was quite impressed by the amount of work he had put into his original study on the Cimbri; of which the current paper is a revised and expanded version

    Y-chromosome research is becoming increasingly common. In my own part of the world a collaborative study by The University of Nottingham, the University of Leicester and University College London has suggested the population in parts of northwest England carries up to 50 per cent male Norse origins. So its time to dust off the longship

    Faux's work appears to be more of an independent project but is no less valid for being so.

    Cheers

  10. #130
    Arnspac's Avatar Miss You Calvin
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    Default Re: Roma Surrectum 2.0: Cimbri Faction Preview

    Yes I have taken great pleasure pushing the assumption that the Welsh are actually descended from 'The Cimbri' or 'Cymbri', much to the consternation of some.

    Actually contacted Professor and author Antonio Santosuosso regarding this issue and received this reply just today;

    Dear Mr. ----
    The evidence on the Cimbri, like most things in that period, is
    uncertain. What most scholars would agree on is that the Cimbri came
    from the north and northeast, that at the beginning their operation
    must have been just a migration for several reasons (poverty, climate
    change, pressure from another ethnic group), but any advance into the
    other territories meant inevitably also a military confrontation.
    By the way I have followed up "Storming the Heavens" with "Barbarians,
    Marauders, and Infidels...." which covers the period from the end of
    the Roman Empire to the conquest of Costantinople by the Turks in 1450.
    Best,
    Antonio Santosuosso

    Cu mândrie, under the Patronage of leif_erikson


    There is no disease I spit on more than treachery.

  11. #131

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum 2.0: Cimbri Faction Preview



    Yes, I can see why that might cause no little consternation in the Valleys....

    Santosuosso sums the subject up pretty succinctly

  12. #132

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum 2.0: Cimbri Faction Preview

    I just don't have the word's

  13. #133

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum 2.0: Cimbri Faction Preview

    Although they look similar, "Cymry" and "Cimbri" are not related words at all. Lots of people make this mistake. "Cymry" is derived from an older form *kom-broges or *kom-mroges meaning loosely "fellow countrymen" (compare the Gaulish tribe the Allomroges - their name means "the foreigners") The terminal suffixes (the -es bit) were lost, O became Y and G softened to a Y/I sound in the change from Brythonic to Welsh.
    Last edited by Elmetiacos; January 29, 2009 at 01:51 PM.
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  14. #134
    Arnspac's Avatar Miss You Calvin
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    Default Re: Roma Surrectum 2.0: Cimbri Faction Preview

    Could you run that by me again in kindergaerten language?
    What you are referring to? I do not really understand the jist of this.

    Since Cimbri is either pronounced 'Kimbree' or 'Kymbree' or 'Simbrahy / Simbri', depending on which expert you prefer.

    cimbric

    CIMBRIC, a. Pertaining to the Cimbri, the inhabitants of the modern Jutland, in Denmark, which was anciently called the Cimbric Chesonese. Hence the modern names, Cymru, Wales, Cambria; Cymro, a Welshman; Cymreig, Welsh, or the Welsh language; names indicating the Welsh to be a colony of the Cimbri or from the same stock.
    CIMBRIC, n. The language of the Cimbri.
    Last edited by Arnspac; January 29, 2009 at 07:47 PM.
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  15. #135

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum 2.0: Cimbri Faction Preview

    I don't see how it could be much simpler. At the time we are talking about, there was no such word as "Cymry". The similarity is just coincidence, as it is for the Cimmerians.
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  16. #136
    Arnspac's Avatar Miss You Calvin
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    Default Re: Roma Surrectum 2.0: Cimbri Faction Preview

    Well it would be simpler if you quoted sources or the post, or if you wish to use a diguised Faux interpretation then say you are paraphrasing said author. But my ancient eyes fail to see where I or anyone used" Cymry " and if it was, in what connotation.
    Last edited by Arnspac; February 01, 2009 at 07:39 AM.
    Cu mândrie, under the Patronage of leif_erikson


    There is no disease I spit on more than treachery.

  17. #137

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum 2.0: Cimbri Faction Preview

    Sources? This isn't a matter for academic debate, it's universally acknowledged by every writer on Celtic languages since about 1890. If you're so convinced that I could be lying, you should be able to find Morris-Jones Welsh Grammar: Historical and Comparative somewhere online. It should also tell you that Cymry is the plural of Cymro. I don't know if you'll be able to understand it, though... I don't want to sound too rude, but coming along without even the most basic understanding of etymology or the Welsh language and asserting that the Welsh are descended from a particular tribe, all based on what was written by a Napoleonic era lexicographer in an English dictionary doesn't wash at all.
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  18. #138

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum 2.0: Cimbri Faction Preview

    Wait so they start in Germania or Jutland?

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  19. #139
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    Default Re: Roma Surrectum 2.0: Cimbri Faction Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewagal View Post
    Wait so they start in Germania or Jutland?
    The latter.

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  20. #140
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    Default Re: Roma Surrectum 2.0: Cimbri Faction Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmetiacos View Post
    Sources? This isn't a matter for academic debate, it's universally acknowledged by every writer on Celtic languages since about 1890. If you're so convinced that I could be lying, you should be able to find Morris-Jones Welsh Grammar: Historical and Comparative somewhere online. It should also tell you that Cymry is the plural of Cymro. I don't know if you'll be able to understand it, though... I don't want to sound too rude, but coming along without even the most basic understanding of etymology or the Welsh language and asserting that the Welsh are descended from a particular tribe, all based on what was written by a Napoleonic era lexicographer in an English dictionary doesn't wash at all.
    You don't have to get your knickers in a knot my friend.
    If you are an expert on the Welsh language I believe you. You do not have to get rude, insulting and condescending.

    I merely asked where I, or anyone else, used 'Cymry' in this thread, (a Post number, or Quote?). I'm still waiting for that answer. " Cymbri " was used, but I still have not seen " Cymry " other than your posts. You, I believe, took it as a personal attack. Then insulted my intelligence ( not once but twice ) by posting to the effect that I was a simpleton.

    I do not profess to be a language expert, nor a German historian, nor do I wish to enter into an academic debate, neither is this thread the place for such. Most of us here are used to asking, or being asked, for 'sources' or 'references' or ' links' to back up a statement that has been made. We do not take it personally.

    I did not intimate that you were lying, nor would I ever break the TOS by doing such ( unless I wanted a holiday from the forum, and a severe dressing down by the senior developers. ) . Post, or pm me where I have and I will apologize on this thread, or on the main page of this forum. Or, if you prefer, I could ask a moderator to scan through the thread and pm me and you a ruling .

    Perhaps you misunderstood the Cimbri - Welsh statements. It's a bit of an inside joke between myself and another team member ( who is Welsh ) regarding one or more written assumptions that the Welsh and northern England peoples, ( Pictones I believe ) are derived from this group who migrated there. If this has offended you in anyway then I apologize.

    Oh, one more thing, regarding lexicographers, perhaps Johnson sums it up best.

    Every other author may aspire to praise; the lexicographer can only hope to escape reproach; and even this negative recompense has been yet granted to very few. --Johnson.

    Even here.
    Last edited by Arnspac; February 01, 2009 at 07:42 PM.
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    There is no disease I spit on more than treachery.

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