Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Crassus/Scipio

[Junius]

I have failed to include the persons responsible for managing the fund in a time of crisis. It is up to the Proconsul, or Propraetor, to ask permission of a Consul to use the fund, or this is how I would imagine it. The Quaestor or Praetor can then ask both the Proconsul and the Consul who authorised it, to answer questions from the Senate.

I do know that we need to include checks and balances so that this fund is not abused. Maybe including a point 3.5 stipulating the conditions, or the process for approval, for use of these funds should be included.

Scipio, I can only assume that is was because you were offended that you wore that shocked and confused face. Rome always sends her best men to do the job. I would not stand here in this assembly if I did not think I was the best man for the job. Why, Scipio, then, are you not offended? You should believe you are the best man for the job, and it is only fair that the best man gets the job. If you do not believe yourself the best man to take Corisica, why should you be the one to control legions in the North? Or even to stand in the Senate as Consul? You should be offended, because it shows belief in yourself, and in Rome. So Scipio, do you not believe in yourself, or, simply, do you not believe in Rome?

[Pontifex Maximus]

Scipio casts a cold gaze at Marcellus. Is he evrybody's doormat today?

I am not so arrogant to assume that I am Rome. If the senate decides, in its wisdom, that Crassus is the better man for the job, then so be it. Do not question my loyalties and do not forget that unlike yourself, I have bled for Rome. To argue that I do not care for her is a fool's stance my friend.

Are other agendas at work? Undoubtedly, senator, but I dare not and cannot presume that any of us are working against Rome.

My "shock" and "confusion" was not borne from my desire to lead the army. I am guessing at the motives of my opponents. I did not expect to be kept in Rome to...participate in...any sort of legislative debate.

I grow tired of this...

[Grandis Latro]

OOC you shouldnt have closed the poll... only 8 people have voted and it was only up for a day... just my .2

[Lord Kal]

Crassus sighed at the petty dispute gripping the Senate floor. "Opponent" was very strong wording to be bandying about in public, no matter how much it was known in private.


"Marcellus, enough. It is hardly a mission which needs a great commander at the helm. It will be merely a process.

Now, I shall make preparations to leave. Are there any unresolved issues, before I go?"

[Pontifex Maximus]

OOC: meh, the results were predictable. let's just get things moving.

Turning to Crassus.

There remains no unresolved issue that the men here don't have competence to resolve in your absence Consul. You may take your leave, and go with our blessing.

We will discuss this economic plan in detail. I have yet only seen it in piecemeal. Could the quaestor kindly compile it into a cohesive report?

Sitting down looking nothing less than bone-tired, Caius waited to be shown the plan.

[Junius]

It is not in my position as Quaestor that I have proposed these laws, merely as a member of the Senate wishing to compile some of the calls from my colleagues into something which can be debated on and voted. I have already given my slant on this issue, and have invited other members to do the same. After further debate, I am sure I can present something which has the interests of the whole Senate within it.

[Lord Kal]

Very well. Senators, I shall depart at once. I will not fail you.

[Pontifex Maximus]

And I would be more than willing to see it Marcellus, but I need to see a finished product of a proposal before I can consider it or move it to a vote.

[chaplain118]

Turnus observed the senate floor. His mind still racing. It had been months since he last set foot within the curia. Months since he had last heard of anything within these halls. The months had aged him physically, but not mentally. He could still observe the senate. He could still read the emotions of the men. They still wore their hearts upon their shirtsleeves, all to eager to let their emotions be seen.

I have looked over the old proposition for our economic plan, and I propose a simplified solution to the amendment senator Marcellus has came up with. Instead of reserving a set amount per season or a flexible amount per season, why not set the bottom at the minimum in which we can recruit a legion? It would guarantee our safety in cases of emergencies, and it would be enough to keep even the stingiest quaestors' mouths shut.

[Pontifex Maximus]

I would be more comfortable speaking of this plan if Marcellus would stipulate just how much money is to be saved or used for works, legions, what have you per season. So far I have only seen preliminary proposals.

Caius shifts in his seat.

[chaplain118]

I believe he has came up with a rough estimate of either 1000 mnai per season or about 5% per season. A fine proposal, but that would limit the flexibility of our budget.

And if we grow weary of keeping track of our savings, we can always devote it all one season if an emergency does arise. By that, I mean we can spend as much as necessary now knowing our borders are secure, and once a threat has been spotted, then we can cut back on our infrastructure building and switch to a military one.

[Ozy]

2. Consuls can change the % due to this reserve, without consultation with the Senate. Both Consuls must be in agreement about this.

I don't see why the Consuls should have the power to change the percentage without any other authorization. I believe it would be more fit for the Quaestor to have the power to propose the changes on the percentage, and execute as well. After all he is the person in charge of the Republic's treasure.

As for the quantity to be saved, I believe a percentage would be more fit as it would vary according to our economy. For example, if we say 5% will be saved, the amount saved will be greater if our economy gets more money, or smaller if it gets less. If we have a fixed quantity, a very large amount of the money could be saved even if our economy can't sustain that, or if the economy grows to much, the quantity could be too small considering we could afford to save more.

[Xavier Dragnesi]

The Praetor makes a very valid point. The Quaestor, being in charge of the Treasury, would be most well informed as to its state, and therefore should be able to propose the best changes to the percentages as the economic situation demands. That job should be left to him, though perhaps the Consuls, who will probably be using the money most, should approve of the Quaestor's percentages before they are applied.

[Hesus de bodemloze]

Quintus Volero Postumus rises from his seat and starts talking.

As i am one of the newly arrived senators my voice will sound new to many of you. I see this debate over who is going to approve of the Questor' s percentages proposal. I seem to remember that in the past the senate always made the decisions that had to do with money questions. So i propose the senate should take this mather in own hands again. We should look at the proposed percentage for the armie and amount that will be released for public buildings.

Quintus looks at his fellow senators and takes place again in his chair.

ooc : could some one post a map of the empire that is already subjected to our empire.

[Snowball]

I agree, i would hate to see the senates wishes...over-ridden by a zealous Quaestor and a Consul or two.

I say we establish the percentage of savings to be made, 5-10% maybe? and the senate can then vote on whether or not to use the reserve when such a motion is appropriate.

I also eagerly await the Quaestors report on our finances, and i would like to ask for a report regarding our northern borders. And the general state of our republic.

[Valerius Tiberius]

Marcus stood again

Consul Caius! And Senator Marcellus!
I did not wish to start a dispute, I merely wanted Roman unity!
If I see these reactions i think it would have been a better thing if I had not say a thing at all!
So let me, who began it, now end it!

Marcus took his seat again, but stept silently towards Quintus.
He whispered:

Quintus Volero Postumus, is it not?
I have heard that you too are new in the Senate house?
I would invite you to my Domus to meet and talk over a meal, but I have not yet settled myself. Can we meet sometime to discuss some matters?

Marcus tried to be as silent as possible, trying not to disturb the talking about the money.

OOC: Hesus, i asked the same Q find it here

[chaplain118]

Senators, allow me to ask each and every one of you a simple question. What, would constitute as a threat that would require us to dip into this ah... reserve? For now the only thing I can think of for this emergency fund would be a foreign invasion that has besieged our cities. So why not say it for what it is? It is a bill for raising emergency legions, legions that will protect Rome.

And you wish to add arbitrary values to the amount we save? You want to save bits and pieces per season in the hopes that some day, you may have enough money to resist a foreign foe who would dare march against Rome and unfurl their unholy banners before her gates?

I say we won't need to put a reserve at a percentage, instead, we should raise a legion now from the funds that would be appropriated and station the legion at our unstable borders. After all, offense is the best defense. You saw that Troy had fallen, in time, and you know that to simply sit behind walls and wait for the enemy to come would invariably lead to downfall.

[Hesus de bodemloze]

Quintus : yes indeed Marcus i am one of the new arrivel' s, maybe i could invide you my dear senator to come for dinner in my villa on the Palantinus. We will not be disturbed my servants will see to this.

Quintus rises from his chair and will be the first to give a speech.

May fellow senators, this has occured years before my birth but i still can hear my grandfather tell the story of the sacking of Rome by Barbarian armies. Are we forgothen how thy occupied Rome except for the capitol? How ower ancestors had to live in chame becous thy needed to pay tribute to these barbarians? Before that my fellow senators we should have a a reserve, you can call it a military reserve but non the less it will be a reserve that is needed if these barbarians decide to invade again.

[Xavier Dragnesi]

Senator Rutulus, I believe the emergency fund is more practical than a legion stationed at a border. Firstly we don't know where an invasion will come from, unless we guard just about every possible route into Italy. Secondly, the cost of financing a legion that is constantly standing at a border, will leech at our treasury turn after turn, while we pay for it to basically stand at a border and do nothing. The soldiers will get bored and lazy, and with boredom and laziness comes dissatifaction and mutiny. At the moment, we can raise a legion within one or two seasons if we utilise all our Italian cities. That is fast enough to combat even an emergency. Plus that system has the flexibility in that we can recruit it where the threat it most ominous. All we need, is that reserve amount of money so we can be sure that we can pay for the recruitment when the time comes.

[Ozy]

The whole idea of the reserve should be mainly this:
-Support Rome in case War starts, one in which the rest of our resources would not be enough, or too much of them would be used. I propose that if a war requires that we use more than 70% of the money that is not in the reserve, then the reserve money could be used.

-Economic crisis. A criteria for this could be established to exactly know when a crisis is occurring. I propose that if our seasonal income decreases beyond a certain limit, then it would be fit to use the reserve, and call a vote for the senate to decide if the reserve must be used or not. I propose that if the total income of the Republic decreases 70% from a previous season, then the reserve could be used (what I mean is, for example, say we make 5000 mnaii in a seasons, and in 3 seasons, we start making 1000 mnaii, then the reserve could be used to boost the economy again by making new buildings).

To establish a protocol to use the reserve, I propose the following:

The Quaestor must understand the situation, and present the senate the case in which it can be seen that any of the previously mentioned criteria is met.

The Consuls, having the power to make propositions to be voted, should make a poll in which the Senate would decide if the situation is fit for the use of the reserve.

In case of a need to decrease, increase or even cancel the reserve funding, a similar procedure should be made, in which the Quaestor again should prove that a change is necessary or fit, in which case the Consuls should start the vote.

The senate should also have the power to request the Quaestor to make a financial report in which it could be seen if whether the reserve could be used or modifing the amount destined for it would be correct, or not.
Of course the numbers I have presented (the percentages)could be modified, I am just making an example with them, but I believe those number would not be bad.