Simplified recruitment scheme for Roman Comitatenses

[FFJean]

Dear all,

This mod is really one of the best I have played, with EB and XGM (and ATW that I really like very much).

I have however a few questions regarding recruitment (for Rome) and maintenance costs (for hunnic archer cavalry):
- Regarding recruitment, we discussed a bit more than a year ago the recruitment of Milites/Pseudo-Comitatenses/Comitatenses/Palatinae units; Ramon agreed that it is not very historical to have (cosmetically) different units of Comitatenses that may not be recruitable / replenishable everywhere throughout the map (at least inside the Empire), although Ramon rightly pointed that it would make the Roman units rather bland. Ramon then mentionned that "I have added an option that does exactly this, try the 'simplified recruitment scheme' option." Disregarding the "bland" effect, as I am more an history fan than a cosmetic one, is the "simplified recruitment scheme" option planned for 8.0? One simple option may be to take one type of Plumbatarii or other Comitatenses as the "default" one recruitable everywehere. We had other suggestions to make the Milites/Pseudo-Comitatenses/Comitatenses/Palatinae units recruitment geographical scheme more historical, is there any such change planned for in 8.0?
- Regarding hunnic archer cavalry, it seems to me too easy to build entire armies of such archer cavalry, that are really playing havoc into enemies, for a maintenance cost that appears very cheap. I have used many such armies on all fronts, and I really think that making them a bit more expensive (at least for non-indigenous nations) would make sense.

Again, thank you for this mod, and best regards,

FFJean

[mw1776]

I would love a simplified recruitment scheme for Comitatenses. Personally I think one shield pattern is enough and that for the most part all the various legio units should be available above a certain barracks level in any region. Let me economy and the needs of the individual game dictate when/where I can recruit new units.

[Axeman]

Agreed , one Comminatense is enough for me as well.

[julianus heraclius]

Well some of us like the simplicity but others like the unique flavour of many shield patterns that the late roman army had to offer. Also region specific recruting allows for variations in morale, weaponry and effects of climate on troops. It also means that recruting becomes more realistic and in fact you may have to ship more specialist troops from one part of the empire to another, something that the romans did from time to time. But hey, that's just me. We all have our won preferences.

[legio_XX]

i like all the Legios!!

it makes it harder to pull the feild armys away from there homes it adds life to how hard the emporers had it with the military plus one. comitatenses is lame and boring getting rid of that would make me sad

[master88]

That would make the game alot easier.....keep the different costumes, makes variety and harder to recuit which makes it to an extent historical.

[SeniorBatavianHorse]

Yes, I agree with JH on this one! I am deep into a H/H WRE campaign (see sig.) and painfully aware of the variations of troop types. Very realistic of the 400AD+ period!

[Ihatemonday]

I want to announce that 8.0 will keep the recruitment scheme for comitanses as is.But the hunnic archer cavalry will be more expensive and upkeep will be more high.

[master88]

Merry Christmas! YEAH....anyways, this is good updates coming from you. Keep up the good work.

[FFJean]

Dear all,

Thank you very much for your answers, although I have to say (may be my usually poor English, as I am not a native speaker) it tends to make me "in need" (;-)) of answering on two points and especially on the "historical one" (at least to master88: "keep the different costumes, makes variety and harder to recuit which makes it to an extent historical.": more difficult, more eye-candy, yes, historical, no! and to dear Julianus Heraclius: "It also means that recruting becomes more realistic and in fact you may have to ship more specialist troops from one part of the empire to another, something that the romans did from time to time.": well, I only mentioned in the discussion Comitatenses... I would love to hear one historical example of a "specialised Comitatenses"!!!! and even more of one being brought to another theater of war!!!).

- Firstly, let me state again that, although I don't "hate" nice and differently-patterned units, if I feel such difference is not created because of historical roots, but just to flatter the eye, as a player, this "eye-candiness" (if this is proper in Englich, which I doublt) is not looking appealing to me. As an example, I would cite the EB/EBII team, which is refraining from using available units slots to create different Greek cities' hoplites patterns for the sake of "eye-candy".

- Secondly, let me explain the understanding I have (dear Pompeius Magnus, dear Ramon, are you still haunting this forum?) of the Roman (ERE/WRE) unit types and their availability for replenishment throughtout the RE: there were three unit "types", if you split them by AOR-"type" rationale. Let me quote Ramon from a year ago (his post will not be difficult to find!): "the reason why there are several comitatenses units is that a more realistic recruitment scheme would be like this:
milites (auxiliaries)
pseudocomitatenses - usually milites that have been attached to field army
comitatenses
that's it.
in my personal opinion it leaves the Romans a bit bland.
making a separate comitatenses model for each legio would also be too much (the ND has enough data to be able to make unique shield for each legio so this is actually possible), would take up too much DMB space, and would be hell on recruitment. so I settled for something in between. if ur interested, try the simplified recruitment scheme option, that one as only one clibinarii model and one comitatenses model used all throughout the empire."
So please, understand my question: I am not debatting the "historical reality" of different Comitatenses unit types based on AOR (I dare to say that this should be well-known by everybody, and the only reason it is not used to its full potential, which is historical, is because it would need a major revamping, with Milites and Pseudo-Comitatenses VERY cheap but very regional, and Comitatenses VERY expensive but available throughout the Empire). And moreover, I think it would not flatter that much the players that like eye-candy units to have "bland" elite units and flattering different Mlites!

All this just to say that I was merely asking whether there could be a "bland" version of this mod (as an second option) for people, like me, that prefer historical reality to eye candiness? I thought this was "meant to be" when I discussed with Ramon a year ago (hence the title of this thread) but it seems not to be an option anymore? As an option only, shouldn't it come back?

Thanks, and sorry if this may look agressive, it is not meant to be. And to the possible question: why not play EB? I play it, but I love the late Empire too, and this mod has many good aspects (at least the last version I played a year ago, 7.04).

Best regards, and, a little late, Merry X-mas to all,

FFJean

[FFJean]

Sorry all to come back on this, but will there be, as an option only, for those most interested in historical basis, a Simplified recruitment scheme, as Ramon mentionned a year ago? Or is this option dead?
Thanks for your answers,
FFJean

[master88]

That is issues stuff FFJean. I was just wondering if the shield patterns on ths website: http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sar...aPatterns.html is unrealistic? Certian patterns were to identify which legio came from where. So personally the dude could look the same, but the shield being the same overall is unrealistic and unhistorical.

(N

[master88]

That is issues stuff FFJean. Let me ask this question: -

This website with different shield patterns: http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sar...aPatterns.html is non historical. One main reason why they had different sheild patterns is due to where the legio or general came from. Im not bashing u in any way but i dissagree with the "all the same looking" legio units across the roman world.

Sorry to double post............ah why me.

[Ramon Gonzales y Garcia]

Sorry all to come back on this, but will there be, as an option only, for those most interested in historical basis, a Simplified recruitment scheme, as Ramon mentionned a year ago? Or is this option dead?
Thanks for your answers,
FFJean

hmmm... I did make a 'simplified recruitment' option I'm pretty sure for the defunct 7.1, I think I've lost the file, though.

by the way it's really easy to do:
open up your export_desc_building.txt file

look for these lines:

                recruit "british legionaries"  0  requires factions { roman, } and hidden_resource britain and not hidden_resource auxilia or not hidden_resource palatina
                recruit "legio lanciarii"  0  requires factions { roman, } and hidden_resource europa and not hidden_resource auxilia or not hidden_resource palatina
                recruit "legio"  0  requires factions { roman, } and hidden_resource german or hidden_resource gaul or hidden_resource grecia or hidden_resource slavic and not hidden_resource auxilia or not hidden_resource palatina
                recruit "legionary"  0  requires factions { roman, } and hidden_resource aegyptian or hidden_resource sarmatian and not hidden_resource auxilia or not hidden_resource palatina
                recruit "comitatenses"  0  requires factions { roman, } and hidden_resource italia or hidden_resource dalmatia or hidden_resource bosphoran and not hidden_resource auxilia or not hidden_resource palatina
                recruit "comitatenses armatus"  0  requires factions { roman, }  and hidden_resource mesopotamia or hidden_resource armeniar or hidden_resource parthian or hidden_resource palestinian and not hidden_resource auxilia or not hidden_resource palatina
                recruit "comitatenses first cohort"  0  requires factions { roman, } and hidden_resource italia2 or hidden_resource asian or hidden_resource indian or hidden_resource steppes and not hidden_resource auxilia or not hidden_resource palatina
                recruit "plumbatarii"  0  requires factions { roman, } and hidden_resource africae or hidden_resource iberia and not hidden_resource auxilia or not hidden_resource palatina

replace all that with:

                recruit "plumbatarii"  0  requires factions { roman, } and not hidden_resource auxilia or not hidden_resource palatina

you can choose which comitatenses unit you prefer and replace the plumbatarii line.

u probably have to replace only 2 entries

u would still get the palatini and auxilia palatini units as well.

only thing is when u start a game u will still have several comitatenses units that you couldn't retrain at all.

[Ihatemonday]

hmmm... I did make a 'simplified recruitment' option I'm pretty sure for the defunct 7.1, I think I've lost the file, though.

by the way it's really easy to do:
open up your export_desc_building.txt file

look for these lines:

                recruit "british legionaries"  0  requires factions { roman, } and hidden_resource britain and not hidden_resource auxilia or not hidden_resource palatina
                recruit "legio lanciarii"  0  requires factions { roman, } and hidden_resource europa and not hidden_resource auxilia or not hidden_resource palatina
                recruit "legio"  0  requires factions { roman, } and hidden_resource german or hidden_resource gaul or hidden_resource grecia or hidden_resource slavic and not hidden_resource auxilia or not hidden_resource palatina
                recruit "legionary"  0  requires factions { roman, } and hidden_resource aegyptian or hidden_resource sarmatian and not hidden_resource auxilia or not hidden_resource palatina
                recruit "comitatenses"  0  requires factions { roman, } and hidden_resource italia or hidden_resource dalmatia or hidden_resource bosphoran and not hidden_resource auxilia or not hidden_resource palatina
                recruit "comitatenses armatus"  0  requires factions { roman, }  and hidden_resource mesopotamia or hidden_resource armeniar or hidden_resource parthian or hidden_resource palestinian and not hidden_resource auxilia or not hidden_resource palatina
                recruit "comitatenses first cohort"  0  requires factions { roman, } and hidden_resource italia2 or hidden_resource asian or hidden_resource indian or hidden_resource steppes and not hidden_resource auxilia or not hidden_resource palatina
                recruit "plumbatarii"  0  requires factions { roman, } and hidden_resource africae or hidden_resource iberia and not hidden_resource auxilia or not hidden_resource palatina

replace all that with:

                recruit "plumbatarii"  0  requires factions { roman, } and not hidden_resource auxilia or not hidden_resource palatina

you can choose which comitatenses unit you prefer and replace the plumbatarii line.

u probably have to replace only 2 entries

u would still get the palatini and auxilia palatini units as well.

only thing is when u start a game u will still have several comitatenses units that you couldn't retrain at all.

Well put out Ramon.

[FFJean]

Dear Master88,

Please let me elaborate a bit. I do not at all disagree with the fact that, historically, there were different shield patterns. What I disagree with, is the impact on RTW/BI of having different units types just to allow these different shield patterns. This for 2 main reasons (same I bet for the many Saravans types for Sassanids):
- to have these different shield patterns (that again, of course, are historical) we have to have an a-historical impact, that is that Comitatenses are recruitable in different AORs. So, Yes, Comitatenses had different "looks", but impact is that Comitatenses are more area-related than say Milites and Pseudo-Comitatenses, which is perfectly a-historical. This is a limitation of RTW/BI of course, but IMHO, to favour the different shield patterns over the recruitment areas rationale of Roman units is to favour the small, eye candy picture over the large picture.
- in addition, obviously, to ensure that these different Comitatenses shield patterns are in the game, it takes many slots that "may" be better used for units that are not in the game.
Maybe a good way forward would be to have one Comitatenses type available everywhere with the other types recruitable in specific AORs.
Again, please forgive my French English if my words are not well chosen.

Yours sincerely, and all my wishes for this New Year,
FFJean

That is issues stuff FFJean. Let me ask this question: -

This website with different shield patterns: http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sar...aPatterns.html is non historical. One main reason why they had different sheild patterns is due to where the legio or general came from. Im not bashing u in any way but i dissagree with the "all the same looking" legio units across the roman world.

Sorry to double post............ah why me.

[master88]

I see, well happy new year to you too. Your english is very good, how long have you been speaking english?

[FFJean]

Dear Master88,
Thank you for your kind words on my English, which I would love to deserve! I have been working in an international (but with very much French + English roots) company for 5 years and this has allowed me not only to improve my knowledge of the language but also to benefit from working with Brits, which has been both very interesting and friendly.
Yours sincerely,
FFJean

[Gäiten]

Well, we will not use a simplified recruitment system for V8.0. Rather we will increase the number of possible Legionary units.

[ThePianist]

It there a way to script the barrack of every city to be able to *retrain*, but not recruit, any Comitatense unit?

In other words, as long as a level 3 barrack (or is it level 4) can recruit at least one type of comitatense, I really don't care which shield pattern or which type. However, let's say in the midst of campaigning the main body of my army is made up of 10 Comitatense units, having just fought a large battle the units are drained down to a few men each. There is a large city nearby, but there is also a large enemy stack nearby and without retraining it will wipe out the now depleted army.
It would be great if all the Comitatense units of different types can be retrained in the large city, replenishing to 80 or 82, even if only one type of Comitatense can be recruited/created there.