Military Technology

[Sidmen]

After offering to remove technology costs from shipdesigns, I thought to myself about the way its handled in Galactic Civilizations, where our combat system is shamelessly stolen from.

Right now we just have a linear progressive setup, where MK2 is twice as good as MK1, MK3 is 3x MK1, ect. And they cost 2x what the previous version does. Its been tried, and tested, and works well enough for anyone. It creates an upper barrier to weapon development that can only be passed by the rich and powerful (Like IRL). However, there is no other real difference between them, they cost roughly the same (5,000 instead of 4,500 is a marginal difference) and only perform marginally better than lower grade (MK8 is barely an improvement over MK7)

There is, another option, the one used by the 'official' game where our combat comes from. It gives you a basic technology, like a laser cannon. When you research more into the laser line, the weapon remains the same power, but becomes cheaper to put on your ship. This continues till you reach the end of that tech line, and then start on the more powerful tech line. (For instance, you get MK5 Lasers, then move onto MK1 Plasma cannons which are more powerful and much more expensive)

We could emulate this a bit, by doing something like the following.
Type A Energy Weapons - 50,000 ; 10,000 ; 20,000 ;30,000 ; 40,000
Type A weapons deal 1 damage, and cost 1,000 to install. Each level of Type A reduces the cost to install by 100. (At MK1 it costs 1,000; at MK5 it'll cost 600)
Type B Energy Weapons - 100,000 ; 20,000 ; 40,000 ; 60,000 ; 80,000
Type B weapons require MK5 Type A Weapons, Type B weapons deal 2 damage, and cost 2,000 to install. Each level of Type B reduces the cost to install by 250. (At MK1 it costs 2,000; at MK5 it'll cost 1,000)
Type C Energy Weapons - 200,000 ; 40,000 ; 80,000 ; 120,000 ; 160,000
Type C weapons require MK5 Type B Weapons, Type C weapons deal 3 damage, and cost 4,000 to install. Each level of Type C reduces the cost to install by 500. (At MK1 it costs 4,000; at MK5 it'll cost 2,000)
Type D Energy Weapons - 400,000 ; 80,000 ; 160,000 ; 240,000 ; 320,000
Type D weapons require MK5 Type C Weapons, Type D weapons deal 4 damage, and cost 8,000 to install. Each level of Type D reduces the cost to install by 1,000. (At MK1 it costs 8,000; at MK5 it'll cost 4,000)
Type E Energy Weapons - 800,000 ; 160,000 ; 320,000 ; 480,000 ; 640,000
Type E weapons require MK5 Type D Weapons, Type E weapons deal 5 damage, and cost 16,000 to install. Each level of Type E reduces the cost to install by 2,000. (At MK1 it costs 16,000; at MK5 it'll cost 8,000)

With this, it would be quite expensive to develop the higher powered weapons systems, (such as F, and G) allowing HP to be cut drastically. It would also allow people to choose to mount 10x Type E-5 weapons for 80,000 credits, or 10x Type D-5 Weapons for 40,000 credits, with a difference of 10 damage and 40,000 credits. (Economical empires would choose the cheaper, less powerful ships; while powerhungry empires would seek the most expensive and powerful vessels)

This is just an idea, I'm fine with keeping the linear setup, tho.

[scottishranger]

Id like to go for this. While things would be more complicated, its more fun than generic little mk1-293993 weapons.

[Problem Sleuth]

Sounds good to me.

[Vequor]

It looks interesting, but it would be a pain to monitor, both for the players who wanted to know what they can buy, and the moderators who would have to plan it all out and make sure no one was buying things beyond their ability. The current system of weapon technology is tried, tested, true, and above all, simple and easy to understand.

[Eric]

I'm for the old system, if it 'ain't' broke then don't fix it.

[Sidmen]

It looks interesting, but it would be a pain to monitor, both for the players who wanted to know what they can buy, and the moderators who would have to plan it all out and make sure no one was buying things beyond their ability. The current system of weapon technology is tried, tested, true, and above all, simple and easy to understand.

Pretty simple actually. For me to keep track of, and for people to use. If you bought Type B weapons, and want version 2, you buy version 2 of type B. The same goes for Version 3 and 4 and 5. If you want type C, you just buy Type A&B up to level 5, then buy C.
You don't need to keep track of anything more than you do now, since the shipmaker will automatically know everything to do with the cost.

[Vequor]

Ehh...I don't get how the shipmaker is going to do that. :$

And I think it would be a pain f or the battlemods to sort out, as well as to check the accuracy of ship designs.

[Sidmen]

Ehh...I don't get how the shipmaker is going to do that. :$

Thats why I'm the one who builds the shipmaker, and everyone else uses it.

I have spent much time developing my Excel skills

(this is not a snap back. I would be very concerned if you did know this much about Excel)

And I think it would be a pain f or the battlemods to sort out, as well as to check the accuracy of ship designs.

Battlemods get no more information than they already do. They get the same readout of HP, Attack power, and Defense power.

As for checking designs, its done in exactly the same way as it always has been. Someone simply plugs the data into the shipbuilder and it tells you what that layout should cost and its stats.


The only real complication would be a slight amount of excess work figuring out the total cost of type A, B, and C weapons when initially buying type D things. And even then; it wouldn't be much at all..

[Sidmen]

Here is the beta version of the Shipbuilder.

In the top left corner you input your ship's length, your hull integrity tech rank, and your miniaturization tech rank (new). This will tell you your HP, Space, and logistics requirements for the ship.

HP can be improved directly by advancing your Hull technology
Space can be improved directly by enhancing your miniaturization technology
Logistics is there for the tentative 'size limit' that I've not yet compiled.

You Deploy your equipment pretty much the same as you have before, except now you choose what class of weapon your installing. An A-class (imagine machineguns, laser beams, and rockets) is fairly cheap, while a B class is 25% more expensive, and a C-class is 25% more expensive than that. You then tell it what level of weapon you have in that class, an MK4 class A is cheaper than an MK1; representing your mastery of that technology.

Defenses work on the same principle; however are rather cheaper than weapons; since the problem with defenses last time was that they were way too expensive to field them in proper numbers to counteract the numbers of weapons being employed.

The Actual costs of these things are way too variable to adequately explain here, so just play with it for a little while.


Anyway, My thoughts on this are as follows: With the wide variety of options for research, it allows you to customize your ship almost as much as imaginable without creating a way complex setup. If you don't feel that your race should develop defensive technology (doesn't fit in with your 'mood') you now have a fairly decent chance of surviving by dumping those funds into hull integrity. If you feel that your race shouldn't be building super big ships, you have the option to dump money into miniaturization technology to even the odds against far larger vessels (since larger vessels cost more, it balances itself out somewhat) And we retain the Offensive/Defensive customization of the old setup with perhaps a twist in research.

If we can do it right, there shouldn't be any 1 right way to build your ships and research things.

[Problem Sleuth]

Defenses work on the same principle; however are rather cheaper than weapons; since the problem with defenses last time was that they were way too expensive to field them in proper numbers to counteract the numbers of weapons being employed.

Technically speaking, defenses could be useful last time, but only against lighter ships or if you custom tailored them to fight an enemy (at which point you suck against everyone else).

[Count Froody]

I like that idea very much, and the cheaper defenses especially. That was one of the very few things about the old ruleset even I found positively annoying

[Paul d]

New excel sheet is really spiffy.

[Vequor]

I already can't seem to understand this sheet...

[Sidmen]

you have to be way more specific if you want help.

[Vequor]

I don't really understand the hp vs slots specifically.

I think I understand the technology though. In this system, the only reason to get higher tech is to unlock new weapons. So for example, level 100 type a energy defenses provide the same defense as level 1 energy defenses. There is no actual difference. I am opposed to this system for that reason. There needs to be a noticable difference at every level of every technology, rather then just being closer to a difference. Cost is not really enough.

And I also dislike the idea of basing the hp around multiples of 30 rather then 20, because not only is 20 what we were used to, but it is also much simpler to multiply.

And while it is good that weaons are no longer cheaper then defense, I think they should be starndardized at the same price.

[Silo]

I really like it thus far, though I wonder what the exact benefit of logisitcs points is?

[Sidmen]

I think I understand the technology though. In this system, the only reason to get higher tech is to unlock new weapons. So for example, level 100 type a energy defenses provide the same defense as level 1 energy defenses. There is no actual difference. I am opposed to this system for that reason. There needs to be a noticable difference at every level of every technology, rather then just being closer to a difference. Cost is not really enough.

Then you would be incorrect. Devoting research into a specific weapon type (for instance, type B) cheapens that weapons system, because your research is into developing that technology further, just like when cellphones came out and they were really expensive and bulky; as time goes on they get smaller and smaller till the new version came out where they added texting and a camera. Thats the symbolance of moving from A to B.

The type of weapon your using determines what damage it will do, while its level determines how advanced the system is; new and undeveloped systems will be extremely expensive compared to an older, less powerful - though more advanced - system. It gives you the choice of advancing your Type D systems to make them really cheap (up to level 10) or giving in and buying the Type E systems.

And I also dislike the idea of basing the hp around multiples of 30 rather then 20, because not only is 20 what we were used to, but it is also much simpler to multiply.

I picked 30 because you can now increase your hp alot by increasing your Hull technology. If you prefer 20, that can be arranged; doesn't really matter to me.

And while it is good that weaons are no longer cheaper then defense, I think they should be starndardized at the same price.

So, you prefer having a steel armored plate (Type A defense) cost the same as a titanium armored plate (Type B) and the same as a composite crystal-diamond armored plate (type C)?

[Vequor]

This system would be completely incompatible with the having all designs in one thread idea. You would either have to buy a new design every single time you wanted to upgrade your technology type or you would have people who had multiple ships using the same design, but who couldn't afford to upgrade each ship with the advanced weapons, thus causing several variations. It would be compatible with the design system as a whole, but mods would have to be notified of variations, or they would have to check themselves. (likely the latter)

As for your remarks about the different defense types, as far as you know in a thousand years, diamond could be easily and quickly produced artificially, and titanium could be the most common known metal. Besides, the extra price is supposed to be in your technology.

To sum things up, why do I oppose this shipbuilding system? Because an update to the old one is completely unecesarry.

[Sidmen]

This system would be completely incompatible with the having all designs in one thread idea. You would either have to buy a new design every single time you wanted to upgrade your technology type or you would have people who had multiple ships using the same design, but who couldn't afford to upgrade each ship with the advanced weapons, thus causing several variations. It would be compatible with the design system as a whole, but mods would have to be notified of variations, or they would have to check themselves. (likely the latter)

The all ship designs in one thread Idea is neither fully discussed nor in effect. Nor do I support that setup the way you talk about it.

As for your remarks about the different defense types, as far as you know in a thousand years, diamond could be easily and quickly produced artificially, and titanium could be the most common known metal. Besides, the extra price is supposed to be in your technology.

And in a thousand years dragons could rule the earth and magical faeries could fly through space breathing the ammonia atmosphere that was put in space for them...

If you are incapable of having a logical discussion without reverting to the "well, yeah, but this is in the future so everything you say is wrong" line of bull, then please just stop.

To sum things up, why do I oppose this shipbuilding system? Because an update to the old one is completely unecesarry.

This is actually the only valid argument that you've made thus far. And one that I've already accepted from you. You feel that everything as it was was perfect and shouldn't be messed with for anything. I disagree, and many others also disagree, please expand on your reasoning for the why you don't feel it should be changed instead of the poorly thought out arguments you've put forward, such as
Its more complex: Not really
Its not realistic: No more than it already is
For all we know it doesn't represent the future: Sure, and in the future there will most likely not be starships anyway so thats a moot point.

Instead of focusing on the already debunked things, tell us why you think the older setup is superior to this newer one. That is where I believe your debating skills will shine.

Edit: Unless there is a terrible outcry about the new shipbuilder over the next day or so, I'm going to go on the assumption that nobody else minds it so much. Sorry, but we shouldn't spend a week on every aspect of the restart if we're expecting to start playing in the next week or so.

[Paul d]

I have some questions:

How much would the miniturization and hull tech cost? I'd imagine they are a necessity for a fleet: and levels 1, 2 and 3 of it are almost useless...