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Thread: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Clarus/Caelinus

  1. #81

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Clarus/Caelinus

    I stand corrected, though a provision like that is best left unuttered.

  2. #82

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Clarus/Caelinus

    "Ahh yes I see, still my argument stands, the sum devoted to infrastructure must be much, much lower. To our military much, much higher. After all, if we use our war machine to gain more cities, then our economy will be even better, I see no negative reason to using the money towards our military. It gives plebs purpose and it gives us money..."
    Caeso Decimus Crassus (32)

  3. #83

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Clarus/Caelinus

    Looting increases our treasury only temporarily. You would have our citizens trod through dirt roads to shanty markets while the Greeks count immeasurable wealth in their stone cities. We are the laughingstock of the civilized world. Once the economy is stable we may begin to spend more on the military. our cities are pathetically undeveloped right now.

  4. #84

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Clarus/Caelinus

    "Actually... I would like to take those wealthy stone cities, for Rome, but with men such as you in power I can't quite yet. And saying that the plebs trod in dirt on their way to the markets, is I believe an exaggeration. I see right through you man, you want to bow to the people because you believe people make you powerful. No, it is still better to advance our military. Military service gives plebs more purpose than any new market... that is fact that cannot be disputed. And anyhow, the vote will tell no?"
    Caeso Decimus Crassus (32)

  5. #85

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Clarus/Caelinus

    "So you would have us sack other's cities, and live off of their wealth....like barbarians. Where is your Roman pride? You speak as if we are no better than Gauls!

    You may oppose my bill if you wish, but it has already be enacted by the senate the the majority of the treasury ill be allocated to economic advancements. So a minimum of 10,000 Denarii will be spent if the current bill does not pass."

  6. #86

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Clarus/Caelinus

    Quaestor Herrenius informed us that we are pulling in approximately 15,400 mnaii a year--6,800 net profit after expenditures. In half a year we can recoup the funds spent on economic infrastructure in Italia under the Victualia frugalitas quod bellicus.

    After this, an unprecedented age of military expansion may ensue without the restraints of a small budget. Do not fear that the people of Italia will become a mass a overweight farmers and lazy merchants. Nay, Epiros shall tremble in fear of us and Carthage will plea for mercy, while to the north, the Gauls will shrink away in trepidation of our military might. If we must lose 12,000 mnaii now so that we may be able to support such a military in the future, then so be it.


  7. #87

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Clarus/Caelinus

    And might I add that our current conflict with Carthage will show what is superior:

    A culture based upon civic military virtue whose citizens prides themselves in fighting for the state or a culture rooted in money-grubbing pursuits whose citizens eschew courage and honor and rely upon mercenaries to defend themselves.

    We shall see which culture is superior.


  8. #88
    Xavier Dragnesi's Avatar Esse quam videre
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Clarus/Caelinus

    I shall abstain in voting, on the point of the 12000 mnai. Unlike Caeso Decimus, I still think that a vast amount of money needs to be spent on infrastructure, as the building of important places in our lands should reap good benefits. However, on the other hand, I am still not supporting the utilisation of such an amount of money is such a small time frame of only two seasons.

  9. #89

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Clarus/Caelinus

    If we agree that an invasion of Africa is some way off, then why have none of you talked about sending a diplomat to try and get a peace treaty?

    Personally though, I think such a thing should be done as soon as we capture Corsica and Sardinia. And I think we would have more than enough money to do it, and that it would not be a significant risk to use a merchant fleet. We can make it from the mainland to the islands well within the amount of time it would take to summon the Carthaginian fleet to intercept them.

    But then, we should try and make them agree to peace. On our terms, naturally. But by invading Africa we will gain nothing. The only settlement worth speaking of in the area is Carthage. All the others are useless wooden-fenced holes in the dirt.

    And Carthage itself is not what makes their empire rich, and if it is, it is only because it is at the centre of a trade empire. We have taken sicily, we shall take corsica and sardinia... their empire is gone, and Carthage alone cannot contend with us, let alone stand against us.

    So I say, we invest money in infrastructure. When the fees are paid and we await the construction, we begin to assemble a force and some merchant vessels. Once we safely land (and we shall), we will easily defeat the tiny Carthaginian force on the island. And then, we should talk of a peace settlement. Something to really shame those sellswords.
    Senator Lucius Artorius Cato (34)

  10. #90

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Clarus/Caelinus

    Crassus, I cannot believe I am about to say this, but I agree with you.

  11. #91

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Clarus/Caelinus

    I share your fear, Senator.

    You may not agree with what I am going to add, but I think if we look in the long-term, Roman and Carthaginian co-existence is possible. So long as they abandon their pathetic attempts at empire, and Carthage becomes the peaceful little port friendly to Rome that it was clearly destined to be... then we can easily co-exist.

    The same, however, cannot be said of our northern neighbours, whose culture means their very existence and particularly proximity threatens our way of life.
    Last edited by Lord Kal; December 14, 2008 at 07:33 PM.
    Senator Lucius Artorius Cato (34)

  12. #92

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Clarus/Caelinus

    A port friendly to Rome, why not a port OF Rome? There will be peace, when all of Carthage's former lands lie under our banner. There will be peace, when they have paid in full for their transgression upon our land. There will be peace, a peace by the sword, in which one will be dominated by the other.

    Never give an enemy a chance. They will strike back when they feel they can strike back. Or worse, when they feel they have nothing to lose by striking back. Crush them completely, and remove the threat forever.

    Crusades
    Historical fiction - Fifty Tales from Rome


    Can YOU dance like the Cookie Man?
    Improbe amor quid non mortalia pectora cogis? - The Aeneid
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  13. #93

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Clarus/Caelinus

    It is a futile pursuit. Invading Africa would be a waste of money, overseas colonies mean we have to maintain a fleet, giving us a vast extra expense. The distance from Rome would make it a hotbed of crime and corruption. It will be expensive to run, it will need a large garrison, if we neglect it for a second then it will ferment rebellion. I could go on...
    Senator Lucius Artorius Cato (34)

  14. #94

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Clarus/Caelinus

    A large empire is not impossible. The Persians did it, Alexander did it, and we WILL do it. After all, we have the ability to recall Senators back, something the other conquerors could not do.

    Crusades
    Historical fiction - Fifty Tales from Rome


    Can YOU dance like the Cookie Man?
    Improbe amor quid non mortalia pectora cogis? - The Aeneid
    I run an Asteroid mining website. Visit it before James Cameron takes it from me.

  15. #95

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Clarus/Caelinus

    It is possible, and we shall do it, but it is not possible to direct an invasion of an entirely foreign land, the maintenance of a fleet, nothing less than a cultural revolution, mass emigration, the founding of new armies, and the checks and controls on those in power from our relatively small base of half of Italia, and her underdeveloped cities.

    The time will come, noble Saevus, but I do not believe that time is when we still have barbarians breathing down our necks on dry land. But the capability is not the issue - it is whether it is profitable for us to do so. At the time, I completely reject the notion that it is.
    Senator Lucius Artorius Cato (34)

  16. #96
    Winter's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Clarus/Caelinus

    Titus Aurelius Cotta arrives in the Curia, and, on taking his seat, stands to speak.

    "Senators, I have word from my father in Sicily. He sends me word of the islands finances, and I shall read them to you now."

    Titus takes out a scroll

    "These being the words of Proconsul Lucius Aurelius Lepidus."



    Senatores,

    I have settled in well here in Sicily. The two major cities under our control, Messana and Lilybeo, are functioning well under our new leadership - we have seen no rebellion or ill will towards us - but there is much work to do to bring these cities into the Republic.

    In order to begin governing the island, I have ordered the establishment of a new form of government, the Provinca Romana:



    In the long run, this strong government will provide lasting ties to the province; far more so than a simple alliance would.
    Establishing the necessary beuracracies and structures in each city will cost a combined toll of about 2400 denarii. I have also trained a spy in Lilybeo, at a cost of 350 denarii, to keep tabs on our neigbhors the Syracusans.

    Now, I realize that the Senate has not yet dispatched me my requested funds. Because I needed to construct buildings quickly, however, I resorted to tearing down old Carthaginian structures and symbols and selling off their parts to add to my treasury.




    Destruction of both of these barracks have yielded a combined income of about 2800 denarii. If you look carefully, you will note that this puts my province underbudget even before the Senate has dispatched my funds. However, do not let this fool you into thinking I do not need these monies - I do. Local barracks must be constructed as soon as possible to aid in our defence, and ports, roads, and traders must be opened across the island. I need money to accomplish these tasks, and I humbly request that the Senate dispatch the funds I have requested.

    Also, I have already dispatched the legion stationed at Lilybeo towards the coast of the Island in anticipation of its recall; I expect that it should arrive in Capua before year's end.



    I await further instruction from the Senate. Your humble and faithful colleague Lucius Aurelus Lepidus


    Ledger:

    Starting treasury: 0

    Incomes:
    2500 - Barracks destruction
    300 - Militia Armory destruction
    1537 - Taxes

    Expenditures
    -1200 - Provinca Romana construction (x2)
    -350 - Spy

    Totals:
    1587 (w/ taxes)
    50 (w/o taxes)

    ----------------------------------------------------------

    OOC: Do you guys think I can use the provinces income to spend, or a percentage of it?


    Last edited by Winter; December 14, 2008 at 08:45 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel Jeb View Post
    Hah, you're always so helpful to threads Winter. No wonder you got citizen!


  17. #97

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Clarus/Caelinus

    OoC: In my private campaigns I usually construct a type four or three government first and then progress to type two or one after a while to represent the slow process of Romanization. It's your province though.

    Also, good question. If I may expand on it, how much freedom should proconsuls have to run their own province? Should we allow them to run it like their own fiefdom, setting taxes, constructing buildings, training a military and invading neighbors at will, keeping their own income to spend as they please etc.; should we micro-manage their every move; or is there somewhere in-between that's right?

    To answer your original question Winter, considering that the purpose of Roman imperialism was to enrich Rome, some of your profit should go to our national treasury. I do think that we need a definite policy in stone that applies to all future provinces. One idea is to allow proconsuls to keep a percentage of their total income to use as they please and send the rest back to Rome. The problem with this, however, is that it cripples low-income provinces while granting high-income provinces an excess of funds that ambitious proconsuls might use for training their own personal military or even building useless buildings simply because they have so much money. I think we need to "spread the wealth" to ensure that there isn't waste.

    It really is silly to allot each province a certain amount of money for each proconsul's term--too much politics. Considering that all the proconsul needs the money for (with the notable exception of military endeavors which the senate has to approve anyway) is construction and espionage, perhaps the proconsul could, whenever he feels it necessary, request of the senate that he be given the necessary funds to build a certain structure and the senate could either approve this, request that he build something else, or deny his request altogether. We could also have a generic tax rate for our provinces.


    I'm just rambling now aren't I. Any thoughts?

    p.s. Destroy the Carthaginian government indicator in Lilibeo if you haven't already.


  18. #98

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Clarus/Caelinus

    Punic fleets? where? they are disorganize after the conquest of Sicily. And further more we have a base in Sicily to launch raids against Carthage and return before they can move to intercept as soon as the operations against the islands are over I propose a 4 point plan


    1st: the enlistment of agents to see the troop concentration in north africa and to ascertain which Citys are under defended


    2nd: the raising of a small mobile raiding force


    3rd: the raising of trireme fleet task force


    4th: take there least defended Citys along North Africa destroy any thing useful(most importantly there ports)


    And your going to be asking how can we get the funds for this? As our finance reports show we will soon have a surplus and with the money and slaves that come from the raids well... as the saying goes "it will pay for its self". And we will take away the life blood of Carthage trade and her navys! according to my estimates we can have the operation ready in 5 years


    Any objections?
    Last edited by Normanknight47; December 15, 2008 at 02:50 AM.
    Repent Today for tomorrow We die
    -Dark Angel Battle Cry



  19. #99

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Clarus/Caelinus

    I disagree to all of these measures. We need to annex first and foremost the Punic Isles. Also, your plan is costly and will take much time. North Africa is not our concern right now, the islands are. We don't need raiding forces and fleets, we need legions and flotillas. I can tell you one thing, even their most lightly defended cities in Africa will be more than enough to destroy any "raiding force" my dear senator.

    We have already mapped out our path. We are to raise a fleet of merchants in Arretium, retrain the legion, then march it to the port and load the men into transports to proceed to Sardinia.

  20. #100

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Clarus/Caelinus

    As i said the this is AFTER we take the Punic islands what other target would there be besides there major infrastructure and ports on North Africa? And second I strongly disagree that a raiding force will be repulsed that easily as we would launch said operation after we have done phase one. We would know exectly there numbers and where they are(plus even if we find no sutlible place to raid Agents in north africa will give us valuble intel). And 3rdly to take any Carthagian territories in north africa now and hope to keep it would take 4 to 5 legions we can bearly have 2 and keep our development plans in italia. And as I said such an operation would not need a full legion and will more then pay for its self after a few raids and serves the purpose of weaking North Africa by a wide margin to a future invasion
    Last edited by Normanknight47; December 15, 2008 at 06:21 AM.
    Repent Today for tomorrow We die
    -Dark Angel Battle Cry



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