Kingdom of Bosnia

[Sultan Nedim]

ya i know but look at the one with the red flag hes probably from the late 14th century and early 15th century and i found this cool web page,its about the battle of doboj,it tells us about the units and a few pics help us
http://www.gdws.co.uk/doboj_1415.htm

[Bosnae]

sorry Phoenix, while i was reading i just flew over the post and didn't noticed the... list will be updated...comment

[Silesian_Noble]

it's a text about polish troops. it says about handgunners which was used in Hussite wars.
but as it says in text, those are italian armor (well, almost every metal armor was crafted in italy).
so it is quite common for bosnia to have any of these troops.

An assumption that in Bosnia infantry was similar to the Polish one is very risky. First of all there was quite a huge distance between Poland and Bosnia. Secondary Poland fought with different enemy then Bosnia, which determine what kind of troups you use (Poles in XIV-XVc fought with Teutonic Order which is said to have most advanced and heaviest army in Europe, while Bosnian fought mostly with Turks? which army was much lighter). Then I'm not sure whether army organisation was the same in Poland and in Bosnia. All in all it is not good idea to say that Polish infantry was the same as Bosnian. I'm pretty sure that the differences were considerable.

(well, almost every metal armor was crafted in italy).

I'm not really sure what is your point in that. But there were more significant blacksmiths in Europe then just Italy. I know that some pretty important were located in southern Germany. Also Polish Krakow and Lwów had many armory craftsmen and exported armory abroad (especially since XIVc).

OK this is a serious distortion, this picture definitely does not present Bosnian warriors. This picture came from page 189 of "Wyprawy Krzyżowe: Husyci" book of Andrzej Michałek. This is Polish book (I have it in home) about Hussite militarism. The picture presents Hussite type of infantry in Hungarian (the lighter warriors adjusted to lighter enemy of Turks - presented mostly on page 188) and Polish (heavier warriors adjusted to Teutonic enemy - presented mostly on the page 189 so the picture that is posted here) armies. Apart from this you must know that Andrzej Michałek is a very controversial historian in Poland (so don't trust everthing he wrote or painted).

[phoenix[illusion]]

An assumption that in Bosnia infantry was similar to the Polish one is very risky. First of all there was quite a huge distance between Poland and Bosnia. Secondary Poland fought with different enemy then Bosnia, which determine what kind of troups you use (Poles in XIV-XVc fought with Teutonic Order which is said to have most advanced and heaviest army in Europe, while Bosnian fought mostly with Turks? which army was much lighter). Then I'm not sure whether army organisation was the same in Poland and in Bosnia. All in all it is not good idea to say that Polish infantry was the same as Bosnian. I'm pretty sure that the differences were considerable.

i was more talking about unit appearance, then weapon. it is just an ordinary gambeson unit. well, and that's why i need more infromations, to make it realistic. i'm thinking about adding maces.

I'm not really sure what is your point in that. But there were more significant blacksmiths in Europe then just Italy. I know that some pretty important were located in southern Germany. Also Polish Krakow and Lwów had many armory craftsmen and exported armory abroad (especially since XIVc).

well, most famous blacksmith was in italy and germany, and as someone wrote before, serbs were buying armor from them (famous milanese armor), so they also used some of german troops as mercenaires (which would be connection to germany, and their blacksmiths)

[NikeBG]

Well, Bulgaria was also buying from Bohemia, Venice, Genoa, Dubrovnik etc., but their units are still quite Byzantine and non-Western nevertheless. Is there information whether Serbia and Bosnia have imported armaments at such a mass scale (I mean, beyond the separate nobles equiping themselves, which was happening all over the Balkans and Byzantium as well)?

[phoenix[illusion]]

Well, Bulgaria was also buying from Bohemia, Venice, Genoa, Dubrovnik etc., but their units are still quite Byzantine and non-Western nevertheless. Is there information whether Serbia and Bosnia have imported armaments at such a mass scale (I mean, beyond the separate nobles equiping themselves, which was happening all over the Balkans and Byzantium as well)?

well, i can say one thing, serbian nobles had western type armor, while infantry had some combination between Byzantium and western type. you can see on this picture. Earlier units were more like Byzantium, but later, much more like western. So i think that's the same for bosnia, but i can only tell that bosnia had for sure western like units in later period. About earlier period, i'm not sure, but i can say it was more like cheap units with just a cloth or simple armor (like those archers)

[phoenix[illusion]]

early type


later

[slavic_crusader]

well i know now in modern bosnia a place called vareš and it was a one of most important place in europe to weild metal through the power of water even from roman times. I think it but be called majdan. Even to day its famous... this may be looked at. But yea it was important i read it somewhere

[Zmaj od Noćaja]

but as it says in text, those are italian armor (well, almost every metal armor was crafted in italy).
.

Not true - Serbia got many of it's armor out of Germany, althoug the majority was impotred from Venice. I would agree with you, though, that finest armor was made in Milan and Venice, but as I said - it was imported from the Germany as well (I think it was from Koln or Nuremburg...) Weapons, too. But, that's another story...

suggestion - you should make that blacksmiths at some point start generate money, or increase trade income (indicating that a town is producing and trading armor and weapons...)

[Bosnian_King]

I read that somebody wrote here about "Gotic" invluence in Bosnia and that there was no Gotic invluence. I can only say that this is not true. For example, the decoration of the grafes of Bosnian kings and the remainings of Bosnian Palace decoration of Bobovac are Gothic.

Also there is a picture from the 15. century which is still today visible somewhere near Split or Trogir at which 6 Bosnian nobleman are visible- with very clear, Gothic decoration on their clothes.

There are rings and other jeweleries found near the Bosnian capital which are decorated in gothic style. In the middle ages we also find from time to time writings of foreign diplomats and other political figures who talk about "The Bosnian style".

I will give here a citat from the book "The holy Bosnian crown and holy Hungarian crown- Dubravko Lovrenovic" it is about fire arms and the production of firearms in Bosnia, the import weapons etc. I translated it for you so that everybody can read it.


page 557

...Besides the import of firearms from Dubrovnik, Venice, grof Ulrich Celsk and Hungaria in Bosnia too, with help of foreign "masters and ingeneers", firearms were produced. Famous was Jorg, a maker of cannons who visited the Bosnian duke Stijepan.

In soth Bosnia, parts of south-west and south east Bosnia, weaponswere imported from Dubrovnik. North Bosnia, north west Bosnia and parts of north-east Bosnia were supplied by weapons of German and Hungarian origin, importet from Hungaria.

Cannons which were found near the town of Maglaj and Babina Sela near Bugojno are similar to the bombards which were found at the Beograd fort (half XV century) and the great bombard which was showed in the museum of Nurnberg. The guns (puske kukace) which were found at these places are of Hungarian model.

The picture of Hrvoje Vukcic from the Hrvojev Misal, and its armor, associates to two Ceh pictures from the end of XIV century.

The Bosnian knight weapons from the stecaks of Zgosce and Radimilije (horse equipement, armor, swords etc.) and from the pictures from Hrvojev misal, show to us that Bosnia was a country in which weaponery was almost at the level of western europe and those remainings show the Bosnian "western character" concerning the weaponery and medieval army...

[Bosnian_King]

by the way

Why can't the topic ""Banate of Bosnia" be opened again?

[Bosnian_King]

If I am right the Bosnian with the nickname "pacco" made these units:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I think that the Tzardoms modellers of skinners are getting better and better but I think that they haven't reached this level yet. How beautiful is this! Am I right? Or is it just the quality of the picture which makes it this good looking? Will the tzardoms units be also as good as this?

[Son of Fire]

Those are mighty fine for sure...
Also, the Magyar Mod infantry skins are fantastic as well...

[sumskilz]

If I am right the Bosnian with the nickname "pacco" made these units

You're right, Pacco did almost all of the texturing and created the Norman style shield model. We used a few textures from the Rusichi mod (mostly just the faces). I created the models by modding and combining various pieces from the Rusichi mod and adding a few peices of my own.

I think that the Tzardoms modellers of skinners are getting better and better but I think that they haven't reached this level yet. How beautiful is this! Am I right? Or is it just the quality of the picture which makes it this good looking? Will the tzardoms units be also as good as this?

I think the Tzardoms units will look better in the game than they do in the preview shots that are taken in Milkshape. That said, Pacco's textures do contain some details (like folds in the fabric of clothing) that I have not seen on the Tzardoms units. Creating textures is very time consuming, so the level of detail included or not included may just be a choice. Phoenix and the guys definitely deserve our encouragement for the work they are doing.

Also, the Magyar Mod infantry skins are fantastic as well...

I like Dome's work a lot as well.

[The Noble Lord]

You're right, Pacco did almost all of the texturing and created the Norman style shield model. We used a few textures from the Rusichi mod (mostly just the faces). I created the models by modding and combining various pieces from the Rusichi mod and adding a few peices of my own.

They sure look very good, for which mod are these units again???

[pacco]

They sure look very good, for which mod are these units again???

Dominion of the Sword

[The Noble Lord]

Dominion of the Sword

They are awesome! Man I don't know how come you not working for CA already. Its a mystery to me.

[Bosnian_King]

Can someone of the developers of Tzardoms tell me something about the names which will be used for the bosnian units?

I was thinking about the name for the bosnian nobles, or vlastela. The units which are finished for some part. We know from documents that those Bosnians were called "Dobri Bosnjani" always. I think that it would be beautifull if we could use this term in the game. So let's not translate it into english, but just let's use one original and historical name for each unit per faction. My quetsion is: Can the bosnian vlastela be called "Dobri Bosnjani"?

[Bosnian_King]

Can someone of the developers of Tzardoms tell me something about the names which will be used for the bosnian units?

I was thinking about the name for the bosnian nobles, or vlastela. The units which are finished for some part. We know from documents that those Bosnians were called "Dobri Bosnjani" always. I think that it would be beautifull if we could use this term in the game. So let's not translate it into english, but just let's use one original and historical name for each unit per faction. My quetsion is: Can the bosnian vlastela be called "Dobri Bosnjani"?

No answer yet....

[slavic_crusader]

i suggest to be patient bosnian_king dont pressure them constantly about bosnians