Awful helmets of the Teutonic Knights

[Monthy]

Hi,

I have one request, for goodness' sake please don't make thouse stupid wings and horns helmets for the Teutons! This is completely wrong idea. Teutons were not devils... were much worst!

Imagine Your self such helmet that weighed 25-30kg. It could tear off the head !

Only some great generals use some "ornament" on the helmet. In the TO it was peacocks feathers.

Se some on the movie in this thread:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=207186

Or some pictures:
http://zdjecia.polska.pl/katalog/gal...2928.htm?sh=17

[Alexios Komnenos]

They wore those wings and helmets. It appears on codexes and manuscripts such as this:



Codex Manesse, 14th Cenury.

And not only Teutonic Knights wore this helmets. Take a look at the Gelre Armorial. This page, for instance:



This is the King of Aragon, with a dragon in the helm's summit, as the dragon was one of Aragon's symbols. And the one below, the count of Montcada, wears a duck in his helmet. And I could go on.:



Yes, possibly they did not wear this in battle, but a "reduced" version of it, still with some scuplture or detail in the summit, since this heraldic symbology was born possibly to make easier to recognize great lords in battlefield.

Take care!

[Plan C]

Early 14th century (before the plague) is understood to have been a period of helmet-ornament bonanza in Western Europe. Some were truly elaborate and used mostly in jousting as they were rather impractical in battle. Good prints Alexios! You will notice that all of them come from the 14th century (note slanted shields - typical for the period). Generally though, elaborate depictions of helmets appear on the manuscripts as another element of heraldry and are not to be taken literally.

@ Monthy - all the pictures you provided depict TO knights in early 15th century and by that time military fashion had changed and ornamental helmets had been phased out although could still be seen on battlefields (rarely).

Japanese warriors used ornamental helmets until the end of Edo period (check out Honda Tadakatsu's famous giant antler helmet - http://www.japan-photo.de/e-honda.htm)

Nice thread!

[Monthy]

Early 14th century (before the plague) is understood to have been a period of helmet-ornament bonanza in Western Europe. Some were truly elaborate and used mostly in jousting as they were rather impractical in battle. Good prints Alexios! You will notice that all of them come from the 14th century (note slanted shields - typical for the period). Generally though, elaborate depictions of helmets appear on the manuscripts as another element of heraldry and are not to be taken literally.

Exactly

@ Monthy - all the pictures you provided depict TO knights in early 15th century and by that time military fashion had changed and ornamental helmets had been phased out although could still be seen on battlefields (rarely).

Yes its true, but my point was that vanillia style is completely useles during the battle. So if Yoy want to have some ornamented helmet i suggest to use peacocks feathers.
Probably TO don't use any ornaments helmets when the order was in Holy Land couse interfere in the battle. So we could also sign up that in XI or XII century they have helmets without any ornaments.

Japanese warriors used ornamental helmets until the end of Edo period (check out Honda Tadakatsu's famous giant antler helmet - http://www.japan-photo.de/e-honda.htm)

Yap I love Japan wariors. Just imagin how they ride in the woods wit those horns!

[boofhead]

As far as I know huge winged/horned/any other type of crest were used on ceremonial helmets, but could also be attached and removed from battle helmets like any other crest. It would be quite ludicrous going into battle with a great thing sticking out of your helmet, as a single blow could just about break your neck or at least disorientate you completely or cause you to lose vision.

Much like the myth of the vikings going into battle with horned helmets....didn't happen.

[Neptulon]

As far as I know huge winged/horned/any other type of crest were used on ceremonial helmets, but could also be attached and removed from battle helmets like any other crest. It would be quite ludicrous going into battle with a great thing sticking out of your helmet, as a single blow could just about break your neck or at least disorientate you completely or cause you to lose vision.

Much like the myth of the vikings going into battle with horned helmets....didn't happen.

Yea I think that actually is a remain from all the paintigns where vikings where shown as devils who plundered and raped

[Monthy]

Indeed,

like old Vikings said:

"Most I like to burn, rape and plunder!"

[aduellist]

Indeed,

like old Vikings said:

"Most I like to burn, rape and plunder!"

"Remember, men. It's pillage, rape, then burn! It's awfully hard to rape a burning woman."

[Basil 11]

"Remember, men. It's pillage, rape, then burn! It's awfully hard to rape a burning woman."

haha - ouch

[Monthy]

"Remember, men. It's pillage, rape, then burn! It's awfully hard to rape a burning woman."

This is couse my broken english BUT..., Jesus Christ! I mean burn the village, NOT THE WOMAN! What this television doing whit humans minds!

You dont give me a choice, I have to excommunicate You.

[Alexios Komnenos]

I know it has not to be taken literally, and it's kind of weird to battle with those dragon at the head's summit. But I insist that most nobles of that time wore little versions of those sculptures, feathers and symbols on the helmet.

This was not a matter of aesthetics. It began as a practical issue: if you were a noble in the battlefield you wanted to be recognized. You wanted your soldiers to know where you were in every moment, asd you wanted the enemy to see you and tremble of your threatening presence.

Teutonic Knights wore wings and bull horns in their helmets (among many other heraldic symbols, as every single Teutonic, Templar or Hospitaller knight was a nobleman) because of the effect it had on the enemies. Besides, bull horns were widely used because of the strong symbolic meaning of the bull. Since far Antiquity, bull represent the power of the man, the virile force, the might of the earth and the wilderness. If you know the ancient city of Çatal Höyük, the "city with no streets", you'll probably know that its "sanctuaries" (there's much controversy about them) are full of bull heads and horns. Not only this, either Egyptian pharaoh wore bull attributes: a bull's tail, among others. The examples are widely spread, and I could go on.

It's curious to note that Christian noblemen, so religious many of them, still valued heathen symbology so explicitly.

Take care!

[Chevalier IX]

it must be remembered that to state it unwieldy and outside the realm of possibility to actually engage in battle wearing a helmet of that sort falls into the same category as the argument for against the Winged Hussars bearing their ornaments in battle,that being all we have to go on is what the contemporaries of the time write,and just as the writings have spoken for the wings in certain situations,so it is thyat we can find writings of the time that state for the wearing of the helmets portrayed in the game by the teutonic knights.and besides...gives them character,for regardless of their personal merit,the object of any ornament was to frighten the enemy and to leave a mental impact upon them prior to and during the battle.Perfect example being the demonic masks worn by both the samurai and mongols,perfectly good men,but bearing the image of demons so as to inspire terror in the men that they bore their blades against.

[aNarion.]

Remember that this is a game, and not reality.. Eye candy is an important part of the game. and i like the current helmets, eventhought some of the look abit exteme.

[Neptulon]

Lets not forget that having cool helmets seriosuly affects the moral. Thats why they had thoose symbols.

So Yepp, having feathers and horns on your helmets seriously made thoose pagans their pants.

[johncage]

the size may have been exaggerated or inaccurate, and the weight issue may be explained by possibility that the material used wasn't dense or heavy. it could have been hollow or a mesh with cloth covering it. purely postulating...

[Chevalier IX]

Heavy helemts or not,we must remember that most heavy cavalry of the time were one shot weapons,hence their use that the decisive points of the conflict,if for no other reason their horses being blown after the first outright charge,therefore it stsnds to reason that the heavy armours were used with the knowledge that typically they would not be worn very long.I am of the mind that the helmets of the order,regardless of ornament were no heavier than the great helms being used throughout western europe during the same or similar time frames,and their usage has not been disputed thus far,therefore there is really no reason to dispute the possibility of helms of the type represented here to have been fully functional in combat,at least of the sort typically seen of the knightly class,that of shock cavalry.

[Alexios Komnenos]

Remember that this is a game, and not reality.. Eye candy is an important part of the game. and i like the current helmets, eventhought some of the look abit exteme.

Of course, vanilla's Teutonic helmets are very cool indeed.

[aduellist]

This is couse my broken english BUT..., Jesus Christ! I mean burn the village, NOT THE WOMAN! What this television doing whit humans minds!

How can you say that about a medium that has given us such classics as:

I'm in love, I'm in love
with Attila the Hun!
Attila the Hun!
Attila the Hun!
We'll pillage a village
and kill everyone!
I still love Attila the Hun!

You dont give me a choice, I have to excommunicate You.

Too late!

[Oskar_GT]

Hi, guys, i just want to add that i love the wnged/horn helments of the TO in game, but always wonder, since i own the game, if those helmets have been made on historical bassis, maybe used as a psychological warfare tactic against the pagans in the baltic area, but readin about the rules, customs and laws of the TO in which they based their way of life, and as the same as the other two important warrior monks catholic orders rules, they had forbitten wear any type of ornaments, both in their arms and armor or even in their horse-harness, in the manners of the secular knights. I saw the codex manesse too, so i think the Brethren, in the evolution of the order, maybe were able to use that type of helmet in combat in some point of their miitary history, but i dont really know...