Bulgaria in EE:TW

[Silesian_Noble]

Hi guys!
I reactivate my old project ‘Eastern Europe: Total War’ http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=144354 and desperately need your support! I’m interested in using the faction of Bulgaria that you made in your mod. Of course the credits would be given for you! Please let me know shortly what you think about it. Cheers.

Silesian_Noble

[NikeBG]

What is the current situation of the faction lists for the two campaigns (if there are still two campaigns for 966 and 1250)?

[Silesian_Noble]

There will be two campaigns, but since I now work alone, their starting date will switch. I hope to post some new information on my EE thread today – stay tune

[NikeBG]

Ok, it looks good! I was asking because before we had a disagreement on the inclusion of a Wallachian faction in the 966 campaign, while such a state actually did not appear until around the 13-14c. I see that's more or less corrected now...

[Silesian_Noble]

I need a clear answer May I use your Bulgaria faction in EE:TW? Surely with all credits given to its creator - BGTW team!

[NikeBG]

I've posted it in our forum and am still waiting for all (or at least most) members of the BGTW team to "vote". So far around half of them have agreed, as long as credits are given and there are no fantasy factions way off their times. When the others reply, I'll be able to give you a clearer answer.

[Silesian_Noble]

OK. By the way, I would also like to consult with you the settlement specification (city/castle; population, infrastructure) in Bulgaria region plus the status of them at define time (Bulgarian or rebellion etc).

[NikeBG]

No problem, if such an information is available, of course (population and infrastructure are rather doubtful, unless they're based on guesses).

[Silesian_Noble]

Welcome again

Questions regarding Bulgaria:
- is Bulgaria boarder correct?
- Please comment my choice of provinces in Bulgaria region
- Which settlement should be castles, and which cities (ratio I prefer cites:castles 3:1)
- What infrastructure level and approximately population number?
- What trade goods in each province (variety of trade goods: m2+kingdoms+wool, beer, copper, cheese)
- Who ruled in 1265 in Bulgaria?
- What would change if starting date was 1280?

Any help most welcomed

Screens of Bulgaria in EE:TW; map for campaign starting in most likely 1265 (possibly 1280)



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[NikeBG]

Questions regarding Bulgaria:
- is Bulgaria boarder correct?
Well, here is a map for 1265 (though in 1265 the lands to the north of the Danube (the Severin area) were in Hungarian hands and Thrace and the southern Black Sea coast (southeastern lands on that map) - in Byzantine, so keep that in mind)
- Please comment my choice of provinces in Bulgaria region
The centres are well-chosen, you've basically picked the most populous centres, so I'd correct only the names - Serdica was at that time called Sredets/Sredec, Silistra was called Drastar/Drǎstǎr. Also, the other names are on Polish it seems, so: Tarnovo/Tǎrnovo, Bdin, Varna, Nish, Skopie, Plavdin/Plǎvdin (medieval Bulgarian name for Philipopolis).
- Which settlement should be castles, and which cities (ratio I prefer cites:castles 3:1)
Cities - Tarnovo, Varna (could be a fortress too though), Plavdin, castles - Sredets, Bdin, Drastar, Nish, Skopie.
- What infrastructure level and approximately population number?
Infrastructure - concerning roads, the main ones were the ancient Roman highways, which were preserved and used throughout the whole Middle Ages (and some even today) - certainly the most important and best supported one was the Via Diagonalis/Via Militaris. The other two were Via Pontica and one which went along the southern side of the Danube, though those latter two were probably not so well kept as the Via Militaris (probably one level lower, like the road which connected the Via Militaris to the Via Egnatia).
The population of Bulgaria in that time was around 2,3-2,4 million people. I can eventually make some calculations about the difference cities etc., but I suggest you simply balance them out.
- What trade goods in each province (variety of trade goods: m2+kingdoms+wool, beer, copper, cheese)
Well, I can't exactly give you a province-by-province list, but I can quote some sources from my old school textbook which speaks about it:
From "Description of Eastern Europe" by an anonymous Western monk, 1308:
"Bulgaria is by itself a large tsardom... Its land is vast, rich and beautiful; it's being watered by ten sailable rivers, it's overgrown with picturesque woods and forests and is rich on wheat, meat, fish, silver and gold and many other goods and especially wax and silk. Hence there is a great number of silver mines in it and all rivers carry a sand mixed with gold from where, by the order of the tsar, gold is constantly extracted."
Mehmed Nesri (XVc.):
"It was a too rich land. It was exporting honey, butter and sheep to the world. It had all kinds of goods, more than in the other lands."
The Arabian geographer Idrisi speaks in his "Amusement for the one who desires to roam the lands" (1153) about "the fertile fields, vegetable- and fruit-gardens, thriving towns and villages".
"In the XIII-XIVc. the Italian merchants exported from Bulgaria in large quantities mostly wheat, rye, barley, silver, silk, hides, honey and wax which was known as "Zagorian wax" (Zagora was the name of Bulgaria in Venetian and Genoese documents) and was the most highly prized one on the international market then."
So, basically, the main goods were the foods (wheat etc), honey and wax, silk, silver and gold. Salt was also being processed, mainly along the Black Sea coast, and was sometimes used for export to Moravia, Constantinople etc.
- Who ruled in 1265 in Bulgaria?
Tsar Konstantin Tih Asen, at that time married to Irina, daughter of Theodore II Laskaris. Allied with the Tatar Berke Khan (in 1264 he used 20 000 Tatars to plunder Byzantine Thrace).
- What would change if starting date was 1280?
In 1280 the tsar is Georgi Terter I, at that time married to Kira Maria, sister of Ivan Asen III. You can see his borders on the same map.

[The Noble Lord]

Awesome work so far, good luck with the entire project.

[Silesian_Noble]

NikeBG thank you for helpful information! Could you also prepare for me a herarhy list of Bulgarian cities in order to their population? So I would know which settlement shall I make bigger and which smaller. Also, what would be Bulgarian capital for the year 1265?

Also, you proposed most of Bulgarian settlements to be castles, while I prefer cities rather. Which castles from your list would make a good city?

[NikeBG]

NikeBG thank you for helpful information! Could you also prepare for me a herarhy list of Bulgarian cities in order to their population? So I would know which settlement shall I make bigger and which smaller. Also, what would be Bulgarian capital for the year 1265?

Also, you proposed most of Bulgarian settlements to be castles, while I prefer cities rather. Which castles from your list would make a good city?

Ah, I thought you prefered the ratio 3 castles to 1 city, not the other way around. Well, that would be easier for sure then.

About the list of the cities population, I guess I should use the ones in the map, right? In that case, I think this would be a good list:
1. Tarnovo
2. Plavdin/Philipopolis
3. Varna
4. Sredec
5. Skopie
6. Bdin
7. Drastar
8. Nish
I guess the latter three would fit well for castles (though Skopie could be a castle too) and the others for cities.

And the Bulgarian capital throughout the whole SBE (1185-~1393) was (Veliko) Tarnovo/Tarnovgrad/Tsarevgrad Tarnov (the last form, btw, fits best to that time period, I think).

[Silesian_Noble]

Hi! I have finished map’s landscape (you may check it here: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...144354&page=16 )and am now about to install Bulgaria in EE:TW. I looked at the roster you made for Bulgaria and must say – I’m pretty confused. Why isn’t there even one unit of HA? After all Bulgaria had nomadic origin! Yeah, I know that after the tribe had settled west of Black Sea the warfare changed, but no HA at all? Even Hungarians remained HA somewhere in XVc. Also each country that have a contact with constant nomadic danger (and you had a boarder with aggressive HA cumans, later Mongols-Tatars) tried to adjust to its militarism. That is why Russia on its steppe boarders assimilated HA tactic, that is way Szeklers on the western boarder of steppe retain great HA skills and that is why HA appeared in Polish army in Renaissance era. So why didn’t you add Bulgaria HA? If I was to create Bulgaria roster, I would give it about 3 units of HA I was also surprised with such a few cavalry units at all. Bulgaria used to be nomadic and nomads are almost cavalry entirely. Yes there is one skirmish cavalry unit – mounted javeliner. I knew it was popular unit in Volga-Bulgaria state but it actually suit to Bulgaria with half territory covered with mountains. Speaking about Volga-Bulgaria – haven’t you thought of creating this faction? After all, they are your brothers.

One more thing. After Cumans appeared in Black Sea coast, the Petcheng were forced to move more to the west and settled in the area of Bulgaria. Maybe it wouldn’t hurt to add greatly skilled HA of Petcheng to Bulgarian roster?

BTW I have got some problems with your mod. The signs didn’t display correctly. Also I couldn’t use arrows keys during battle. Maybe it is because you made that mod for Bulgarian version of medieval? Or maybe it is not adjusted to the latest 1.05 patch?

[NikeBG]

The reasons why we didn't unclude native-Bulgarian horse archers and have low levels of cavalry are many, but I can simply summarize it to: the old Bulgars were semi-nomadic people, yes, but they did mix with the Slavs and after the Russian attack (around 969) it seems we've lost much of our Bulgar equestrian nobility (at least in the wars between 970 and 1018 we have almost no cavalry). After 1018 Bulgaria fell under Byzantine rule, which lasted till 1185 and imposed a really huge influence (which was pretty big after the Christianization anyway), so after the Second Bulgarian state was restored in 1185, it mostly copied the Byzantine system in a number of ways, including armament and style of warfare. The light cavalry and the horse archers were almost entirely provided by mercenaries and allies - most usually Cumans (who were Bulgarian allies till the Mongol invasion) and after the Mongols came, some Cumans settled in Bulgaria, while later on we started using Tatar mercenary horse archers (also Alans some times).
So, basically, the reasons for the lack of horse archers and light cavalry are because the Bulgarian people changed a lot during those times, especially in the socio-economical style of living (good steppe horse archers require a steppe way of living, while later Bulgarians became more and more feudalized etc), so during the SBE the Bulgarians were too Byzantinized to field their own horse archer armies. Fortunately for them, they were best buddies with the Cumans, who filled that niche perfectly...
As for the Pechenegs, there might have been some remnants of them by 1190, but they would probably be too minimal to make separate military detachments (the only sizeable and possibly non-Bulgarian units were the Cumans and the Vlachs) - the Pechenegs (and the Uzes before them) got assimilated, Christianized and settled down rather fast (unlike the Cumans, who kept their way of living and self-consciousness in Bulgaria till around the Turkish times, although they did convert to Christianity).

[AnthoniusII]

The reasons why we didn't unclude native-Bulgarian horse archers and have low levels of cavalry are many, but I can simply summarize it to: the old Bulgars were semi-nomadic people, yes, but they did mix with the Slavs and after the Russian attack (around 969) it seems we've lost much of our Bulgar equestrian nobility (at least in the wars between 970 and 1018 we have almost no cavalry). After 1018 Bulgaria fell under Byzantine rule, which lasted till 1185 and imposed a really huge influence (which was pretty big after the Christianization anyway), so after the Second Bulgarian state was restored in 1185, it mostly copied the Byzantine system in a number of ways, including armament and style of warfare. The light cavalry and the horse archers were almost entirely provided by mercenaries and allies - most usually Cumans (who were Bulgarian allies till the Mongol invasion) and after the Mongols came, some Cumans settled in Bulgaria, while later on we started using Tatar mercenary horse archers (also Alans some times).
So, basically, the reasons for the lack of horse archers and light cavalry are because the Bulgarian people changed a lot during those times, especially in the socio-economical style of living (good steppe horse archers require a steppe way of living, while later Bulgarians became more and more feudalized etc), so during the SBE the Bulgarians were too Byzantinized to field their own horse archer armies. Fortunately for them, they were best buddies with the Cumans, who filled that niche perfectly...
As for the Pechenegs, there might have been some remnants of them by 1190, but they would probably be too minimal to make separate military detachments (the only sizeable and possibly non-Bulgarian units were the Cumans and the Vlachs) - the Pechenegs (and the Uzes before them) got assimilated, Christianized and settled down rather fast (unlike the Cumans, who kept their way of living and self-consciousness in Bulgaria till around the Turkish times, although they did convert to Christianity).

An interesting article there...
It is true that the main wars between Romans and Bulgarians were deployed in mountains ussing ambuses and raids plus the attempts from both sides to "buy" some of their opponets!
The byzantine unit system Nike BG mentions refers to the 'kursores"/defensores" system!Each unit had two major parts!
The ones that were responsible for the asault (the archers/kursores)and the counter attack ones (the lancers/defensores).
Some one should ask!
If the romano/bulgarian wars were mainly in mountains then why Romans developted Cataphracts again?
This question will be answer soon in Great Conflicts mod!

[NikeBG]

Some one should ask!
If the romano/bulgarian wars were mainly in mountains then why Romans developted Cataphracts again?

Along the same line, someone should ask why the semi-nomadic Bulgars seem to have preferred to fight in the mountain fortresses too (eventhough the mountain passes themselves were left to be guarded by the Slavs initially).
Though I myself can't really explain why the Bulgars/Bulgarians fortified themselves so much (we have around 25-30 000 medieval fortresses/fortifications in Bulgaria, especially in the mountains, which is also testified in Byzantine, Turkish and other sources). Quite a strange behaviour for former steppe people...

[AnthoniusII]

Along the same line, someone should ask why the semi-nomadic Bulgars seem to have preferred to fight in the mountain fortresses too (eventhough the mountain passes themselves were left to be guarded by the Slavs initially).
Though I myself can't really explain why the Bulgars/Bulgarians fortified themselves so much (we have around 25-30 000 medieval fortresses/fortifications in Bulgaria, especially in the mountains, which is also testified in Byzantine, Turkish and other sources). Quite a strange behaviour for former steppe people...

I would do that too(fight in mountain passes and forts!
You already mentioned that bulgarians had a serius lack of native cavalry that ear...So it would be a suicide to fight against the heaviest cavalry of the world in open fields!But as we already know the heavier a cavalry man is the less batllefields he can be used!
And afcourse when an army beseiges a castle cavalry is useless until the defenders decide to come out and fight!
Even the Roman(byzantine)historians mentioned that both opponets changed the borders of the conflict by bribing castle and cities rullers..

In Great Conflicts the terain of the balkans will be as accurate(many mountains)as it can be,giving to defenders as much advandage as it's possible!But for the both factions civil wars will exist via the "shadow" factions that will apear for several reasons(loss of the faction's capital,generals that have huge number of personal victories,loss of many cities by the ennemies)!
That feature wll show the realism of that era that all rullers had to be sure about their own subjects and then fight against others!

[AnthoniusII]

Just a question...
We know for sure that in the 9th and 10th centuries Magyars(not yet Hungarians) raided the balkans and faught against all the people in there!
Romans did hired some of them (later known as Vardariotae)and established then around Philipoupollis as "symachoi" or auxilias!
The question is id also Bulgarians hired Magyars as mercenaries or as "allied" forces in the time frame of the Great Conflicts?

I want to know becouse after the 1st raids/invasions of the Magyars they should be unlocked as mercenaries for the balkan factions!

[NikeBG]

I don't think so. The Bulgarian army at that time was pretty self-sufficient, so it very rarely used mercenaries. And I don't remember any case where Magyars were used (though Pechenegs, on the other hand, were rather often used as allies).