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Thread: War of 1812 Victor

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    Eupholi's Avatar Wimmer
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    Default War of 1812 Victor

    In my Canadian History class we learned a little bit about the War of 1812, a war between the Americans and British controlled Canada. My teacher said that many Americans believe that the war was a victory, can any Americans who think this tell me why?

    The Americans wanted to conquer all of the British colonies that still existed in North America. They were not able to conquer Canada even though we had a population of 500 000 and at this time their were 7 million Americans. So why if you did you not achieve your objectives is it considered a success?

    The Canadian and British forces only wanted to keep their lands in what is now Canada, and they successfully did this. They held off the Americans and were able to keep their lands. Why don't all the history books say that The British-Canadians won?
    Last edited by Eupholi; November 11, 2008 at 06:43 PM.

  2. #2
    L'Afrique's Avatar Kirā
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    Default Re: War of 1812 Victor

    Only Brits and Canadians claim that conquest of British North America was an objective of the US. In reality, the US' goal was to enforce its maritime rights and force withdrawal of British troops from the west. Both of these goals were achieved. The conquest of Canada was nothing but a dream for a few warhawk federalists.

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    Axeman's Avatar Equites Alares
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    Default Re: War of 1812 Victor

    Quote Originally Posted by L'Afrique View Post
    Only Brits and Canadians claim that conquest of British North America was an objective of the US. In reality, the US' goal was to enforce its maritime rights and force withdrawal of British troops from the west. Both of these goals were achieved. The conquest of Canada was nothing but a dream for a few warhawk federalists.
    QFT

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    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Default Re: War of 1812 Victor

    Quote Originally Posted by L'Afrique View Post
    Only Brits and Canadians claim that conquest of British North America was an objective of the US .
    It was a goal of the US. The Americans believed that they were to liberate Canada from the oppressive British (despite that the clear majority wished to stay with Britain) Jefferson even commented on the conquest of Canada, stating that it would "be as easy as marching in" However, the war started to end British impressment of American sailors, but it is quite clear that the Americans had an eye fixed on Canada.

    ...hey, whadda know, my British Empire history class actually came in handy!

    As to who won the war, I'd say it was a stalemate. The US ended British interference in American shipping, and the British/Canadians all but totally ended the idea of the conquest of Canada.
    Last edited by Last Roman; November 11, 2008 at 07:33 PM.
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    Justice and Mercy's Avatar Sohei
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    Default Re: War of 1812 Victor

    Quote Originally Posted by Eupholi View Post
    The Americans wanted to conquer all of the British colonies that still existed in North America.
    Oh, is that what they're teaching you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    The idea that one cause of the war was American expansionism or desire for Canadian land was much discussed among historians before 1940, but is rarely cited by experts any more. Some Canadian historians propounded the notion in the early 20th century, and it survives among Canadians.
    Hell, I haven't even heard a British person argue that before.

    Quote Originally Posted by L'Afrique
    The conquest of Canada was nothing but a dream for a few warhawk federalists.
    That's why not a single Federalist voted to declare war? The Federalists, being the dolts they were, weren't willing to defend the freedom of their own citizens as is the proper role of government.



    As for the war itself, maybe the Brits shouldn't have been forcing US sailors on merchant ships to fight on their ships, hmm? The attempt to conquer Canada was an attempt to gain a bargaining chip.

    EDIT: As for the outcome of the war, the Americans won even though they fought the war incredibly poorly. They accomplished their goal of ending the impressment of Americans onto British navy ships.
    Last edited by Justice and Mercy; November 11, 2008 at 07:43 PM.
    The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. - James Madison

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    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Default Re: War of 1812 Victor

    Quote Originally Posted by Justice and Mercy View Post
    They accomplished their goal of ending the impressment of Americans onto British navy ships.
    and totally failed in their conquest of Canada (which was more than just an attempt to get a "bargaining chip")
    Last edited by Last Roman; November 11, 2008 at 09:18 PM.
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    Default Re: War of 1812 Victor

    Impressment ended together, and mostly due to the Napoleonic Wars. The war was a complete stalemate from start and nothing was gained, except for a certain sense of patriotism in Canada.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

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    Eupholi's Avatar Wimmer
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    Default Re: War of 1812 Victor

    Quote Originally Posted by Justice and Mercy View Post
    Oh, is that what they're teaching you?
    Have you ever heard of something called the Manifest Destiny.

    From Wikipedia:

    Manifest Destiny is the belief that the United States was destined to expand from the Atlantic seaboard to the Pacific Ocean. Sometimes Manifest Destiny was interpreted so widely as to include the eventual absorption of all North America: Canada, Mexico, Cuba and Central America.
    I guess my teacher uses the second interpretation.

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    Erebus Pasha's Avatar vezir-i Ôzam
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    Default Re: War of 1812 Victor

    The war was a stalemate - the British were unable to make inroads into the American hinterland whilst the Americans were unable to take Canada. Threads like this have come up a thousand times and usually end up with the usual amount of dickwaving from both sides.

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    Justice and Mercy's Avatar Sohei
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    Default Re: War of 1812 Victor

    Quote Originally Posted by Last Roman View Post
    and totally failed in their conquest of Canada (which was more than just an attempt to get a "bargaining chip")
    Why? Because the British say so?
    The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. - James Madison

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    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Default Re: War of 1812 Victor

    Quote Originally Posted by Justice and Mercy View Post
    Why? Because the British say so?
    no, because every history professor I've had (ie, Americans) have said so.
    Last edited by Last Roman; November 11, 2008 at 09:59 PM.
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    Justice and Mercy's Avatar Sohei
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    Default Re: War of 1812 Victor

    Quote Originally Posted by Last Roman View Post
    no, because every history professor I've had (ie, Americans) have said so.
    And how did they know this?
    The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. - James Madison

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    Default Re: War of 1812 Victor

    Because it was a fact of the war otherwise Canada would be part of the USA.

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    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Default Re: War of 1812 Victor

    Quote Originally Posted by Justice and Mercy View Post
    And how did they know this?
    because they look at what Americans of the time said; most famous is what Jefferson said. It was hardly the sole goal of the war, nor the reason for starting it, as some would claim, but it was a goal of during the war.

    Now, how do you know you're right, and you can't just depend on your misplaced sense of nationalism.
    Last edited by Last Roman; November 11, 2008 at 10:06 PM.
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    Justice and Mercy's Avatar Sohei
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    Default Re: War of 1812 Victor

    Quote Originally Posted by Last Roman View Post
    because they look at what Americans of the time said; most famous is what Jefferson said.
    And they said... what?

    I know what Madison said.

    I know what members of Congress said.

    Not what the Americans who wanted to conquer Canada said.

    It was hardly the sole goal of the war, nor the reason for starting it, as some would claim, but it was a goal of during the war.
    Ah, that was the reason Madison gave Congress to go to war and the reason Congress voted to go to war... but not the goal of the war.

    Because your professors said so.

    EDIT:

    Since you no longer seem interested in debating I'll finish this myself.

    Jefferson never wanted to take Canada as an imperial domain, the reason he gave was to stop the Canadians from giving support to the Indians to fight the Americans (in fact the War Hawks of the time were largely western and southern frontiersman who, having been alone in their fight against the Indians, saw an oppurtunity to use the Feds to fight the Indians and the allies of the Indians, Canada).

    Madison called the war a victory due to the end of impressment, and never claimed to want to conquer Canada as an imperial domain.

    Not a single member of Congress who voted for the war, at least not that I've read, and I've searched the Annals which, though not complete, certainly give a good feel for how the members of Congress at the time felt, wanted to take Canada as a permanent imperial domain.

    There's no reason to believe it was a goal of the war at all.
    Last edited by Justice and Mercy; November 11, 2008 at 11:06 PM.
    The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. - James Madison

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    Ahlerich's Avatar Centurio Primus Pilus
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    Default Re: War of 1812 Victor

    Quote Originally Posted by Justice and Mercy View Post
    Madison called the war a victory due to the end of impressment, and never claimed to want to conquer Canada as an imperial domain.
    mission accomplished


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    Archaalen's Avatar Hastatas Prior
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    Default Re: War of 1812 Victor

    War of 1812 was stupid war for the US to get involved in in the first place, we could have been destroyed if the British weren't so busy dealing with Napoleon. Had it happened at any other time, the US would be part of Canada! Since we managed to survive the conflict intact, people call it a win for us, even though it was more like a draw in the strategic sense.

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    Yorkshireman's Avatar Kamikaze
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    Default Re: War of 1812 Victor

    Quote Originally Posted by Justice and Mercy View Post
    Madison called the war a victory due to the end of impressment, and never claimed to want to conquer Canada as an imperial domain.
    Actually the war of 1812 had nothing to do with the eventual ending of impressment. At the Treay of Ghent the British government made no concessions to this at all. Besides, the Royal Navy ended the practice after victory in the Napoleonic wars when they started laying up warships and putting sailors on the beach. They simply did'nt need the men anymore.
    Last edited by Yorkshireman; November 12, 2008 at 06:47 AM.

  19. #19
    Ishiyumi no shashu
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    Default Re: War of 1812 Victor

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkshireman View Post
    Actually the war of 1812 had nothing to do with ending impressment. At the Treay of Ghent the British government made no concessions to this at all. Besides, the Royal Navy ended the practice after victory in the Napoleonic wars when they started laying up warships and putting sailors on the beach. They simply did'nt need the men anymore.
    Nor indeed was there ever any impressment in the first place. The "impressment" was RN ships searching for deserters from the RN (jumping ship in port and signing on a US flagged ship was fairly common).

    At school I was certainly taught about impressment. It's only later I find out how hard it actually was to enlist someone and how many opportunities both Army and RN enlistees got to recant.

    However, Madison had been trying to force a war between the UK and the US for years, 1812 was simply his opportunity, but it was an outright disaster for the US, their shipping was swept from the seas, or defected and reflagged as British (especially New England based ships), their attempts to invade Canada were dismal failures, and the British were roaming their coast at will.

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    Chukada1's Avatar Sagittarius
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    Default Re: War of 1812 Victor

    I'd like to remind the Americans, that taking back America was not a British goal in the war. That stopping the British at the Battle of New Orleans, does not make it a tie. Impressment only stopped because the British won the Napoleanic War, and being that your other goal was to conquer Canada, you failed at that to. Jolly good, well you can pack up and go home, we shall call it a draw.

    No. Failing to achieve your objectives is a failure, not a draw/tie/gentleman's deal, which you Americans are so fond of. Man up. You guys loose conflicts like the rest of the world.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rolling Thunder View Post
    Probably due to the fact that compared to the stench that is China's human rights record, Britain, including it's Empire, look positively decent.

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