Discussion and Announcements

[Zarax]

Thureophoroi and similar units are not skirmishers but light infantry akin to the roman hastati so it's correct that they do not skirmish but rather use their missiless before a charge.
If you need to use all their missiless just turn fire at will on and position them near the enemy line.

[synthesis]

So it's not possible to have the precursor weapon function turned off with a non skirmishing unit?

[Zarax]

If you don't have prec on the unit becomes a skirmisher, which is silly for units that were historically used in different roles like thureophoroi.

[Scutarii]

Money is difficult to make if you don't watch out. If you have units that are infact useless, your depleeting your treasery pretty fast. Just 5 Militia Phalangites already cost you 1.500 a turn. (IIRC) So 3 turns of heavy recruiting and you'll find yourselve in serious money problems.

If he's got all the Aegean settlements, he'll be rolling in dough. Richest place on the map.

[TM Is Back]

If he's got all the Aegean settlements, he'll be rolling in dough. Richest place on the map.

True true. He should try a Gaulic campaign, then he will know what money shortage is

[Spartan198]

He should try a Gaulic campaign, then he will know what money shortage is

True that.

[Vercingetorix_Defeated]

If you don't have prec on the unit becomes a skirmisher, which is silly for units that were historically used in different roles like thureophoroi.

In-game, thureophoroi are pretty much useless in melee against anything other than peltasts and other heavy peltasts. Even in flanking attacks on better units they take huge casualties.

Since they have a stupidly high number of javelins anyway (6 or 8 or something like that), might as well use them as skirmishers. They're wasted in melee combat against any decent unit.

Well, "skirmishers" doesn't describe it properly: they can massacre pretty much any unit out there with 6 volleys.

But that's just going along with the overpowered nature of javelin units in XGM generally.

[Zarax]

It's doubtless that they need rebalancing, still thureophoroi are supposed to be light/medium infantrymen rather than a skirmisher.
The problem is that XGM misses the heavy peltast link of the chain.

This is how it's depicted in EB:

cheap skirmisher:

heavy peltast:

thureophoroi:

thorakitai:

and to the top of the heavy skirmisher foodchain you get

macedonian royal peltast:

seleucid royal thorakitai:

[stormer]

From where can i download the Redfox extras from?

[RedFox]

From the XGM Download Links page...

[GoldShield Guard]

Money is difficult to make if you don't watch out. If you have units that are infact useless, your depleeting your treasery pretty fast. Just 5 Militia Phalangites already cost you 1.500 a turn. (IIRC) So 3 turns of heavy recruiting and you'll find yourselve in serious money problems.

You are right, I take it back. After two turns of heavy recruiting, I have a problem (about 7-8.000 per turn). I need a second full stack to beat the Romans, but I don't know what to do, because I think Thrace will attack to me soon. This is the key, I need more time not engaged with Thrace, so as to be able to fight with Romans.

Another thing that I noticed, is that now the difficult time starts. Until now I occupied every city I conquered, because it was Greek native. There was in it the highest level of barraks for the town or city level, so retraining was easy. But now, to the west and to the east, the cultures are not Greek. So there is no retraining any more, so I am forced to have a second half stack army to retrain the depleted main one. That's why I have already a financial problem.

Thureophoroi and similar units are not skirmishers but light infantry akin to the roman hastati so it's correct that they do not skirmish but rather use their missiless before a charge.
If you need to use all their missiless just turn fire at will on and position them near the enemy line.

Yes, but if the enemy unit is engaged to one of yours, they do NOT fire, if fire at will is on. So the problem remains. I think DBH must use the EB system, adding an intermediate unit of heavy peltast before thureoforoi!

In-game, thureophoroi are pretty much useless in melee against anything other than peltasts and other heavy peltasts. Even in flanking attacks on better units they take huge casualties.

Since they have a stupidly high number of javelins anyway (6 or 8 or something like that), might as well use them as skirmishers. They're wasted in melee combat against any decent unit.

Well, "skirmishers" doesn't describe it properly: they can massacre pretty much any unit out there with 6 volleys.

But that's just going along with the overpowered nature of javelin units in XGM generally.

I also agree to that. I have a huge problem with pila from Romans and javelins from thyreoforoi. They inflict an unrealistic damage to my hoplites, enen the spartan ones in shield wall mode, so it is not worth to attack an army. I prefer to stay in front of him and provoke him to attack me, otherwise the casualties from javelins when approaching the enemy are huge and turn the balance of the battle clearly in favor of the enemy!

I also noticed that archers, even Cretans one, are pretty much useless until now. They have very small number of arrows (compared to what I am used to from DarthMod and vanilla) and also shorter range and less accuracy. The full volleys of one Cretan unit cannot exterminate a peltast unit! I have only one unit in every full stack, but I am considering leave even it out.

[Darth Alec]

For some reason, javelins don't do a lot of damage in my games. 2HP FTW?

[TM Is Back]

What you must do is to defend against Rome, you will only need a halve stack to accomplish that if you have one border city. Then in de mean time, destroy Trace. After Trace, you can deside to enter Asia, where most city's are Greek native or Greek colonised (only for Pontus, Saba, Armenia and Parthia) or to make an attack on the Roman peninsula near Tarentum or Syracuse.

[synthesis]

Yeah, 2HP has definitely toned down the initial damage from javelins.

[GoldShield Guard]

Impressions from XGM part TWO.

1. The javelin effect, now that I have armies with armouried weapons, is not so terrible. I instead exploit it. I put two thorakitai in every edge of my armies, and just behind them two thyreoforoi. Any enemy unit that approaches this compination, is completely exterminated from javelins!

2. Still archers are very weak, I continue to use only one unit in every full stack.

3. I was forced to reinstall the mod using reduced AI bonus ON, because (in my GCS Campaign, if you don't remember ) the Seleucian and Romans sent to me every time two full stacks with silver chevron armies! I could not win, because I did not have the money to retrain so often my armies, after the win of a battle. It was not fun and it was also very unrealistic, because...

4. ... Romans in a strange way, did NOT attack to the north, but stayed in their lands. Maybe because I took Tarentum very early? They attacked me at Tarentum, when I attacked to the Roman Rebels. Also they had managed to overthrow the Carthageneans, who had taken Capua for one turn, a long time ago. But they are NOT in a war in their northern frontier, with Gauls. So how was possible for them to have full silver chevroned stacks? Anyway, now we are at about 250 B.C. and I am about to take Rome, with my secretely recruited four catapult units.

5. In conclusion, I like the mod VERY VERY MUCH (with Command submod I remind). It still has some minor "defects" sort of speaking, but DBH tried to please every possible taste, giving so many options during the installation, like the reduced move rate and AI bonus ones. It is very enjoyable, much more than other mods. Thank you very much guys!

[Scutarii]

What version are you on? Dime took out the chevron bonuses recently. I think the AI might be able ot get 2 chevrons off the temple of Mars though. It used to be +2 from the temple, and the arbitrary +2 from the monument. Now that the monument is gone, it should just be stacks of 2 bronze chevron legionaries..

[silentsam74]

What version are you on? Dime took out the chevron bonuses recently. I think the AI might be able ot get 2 chevrons off the temple of Mars though. It used to be +2 from the temple, and the arbitrary +2 from the monument. Now that the monument is gone, it should just be stacks of 2 bronze chevron legionaries..

Ahhh, two plus two equals a single silver chevron. That explains all those that I saw in previous versions. I've yet to check the Romans out in the latest XGM release so i hadn't seen that change yet.

[CaesarVincens]

Actually, I don't think Dime changed the XP bonus for the Romans, just the Scythians and Parthians. And he only removed those in the reduced bonuses. Just reducing them otherwise.

[GoldShield Guard]

What version are you on? Dime took out the chevron bonuses recently. I think the AI might be able ot get 2 chevrons off the temple of Mars though. It used to be +2 from the temple, and the arbitrary +2 from the monument. Now that the monument is gone, it should just be stacks of 2 bronze chevron legionaries..

I have the latest version, 5.8.21. I am outside Rome right now, and the newly trained roman soldiers are with two silver chevrons each. From the other cities though, they are with two or three bronze chevrons.

[Scutarii]

Oh, my mistake then. I didn't know he only took out the nomad factions exp. bonus, just assumed he took out Rome's too.