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Thread: The Seljuk Empire and other issues

  1. #1

    Default The Seljuk Empire and other issues

    Hi there!

    After looking at the preview, I noticed several things that does'nt seem to me accurate enough. The first among them concerns the Great Seljuks Empire. It is portrayed as the most powerful facion in the game, but the Seljuk Empire was no unified domain like the Roman or the Sassanid Empires. It was nothing more than the domain of a family (the Seljuk family) allied with many warlords of the Near and Middle East.

    The story of Basil Akritas, a Digenes (half-blood) lord, son of a Muslim Amir and a Byzantine noblewoman, lord of the eastern Empire's frontiers and also of no man's land between the Roman and the Arabian Empires, is a proof of it. He was like El Cid in Spain. Basil and many other frontier lords from the Roman Empire, from Armenia, from Georgia or from the Caliphate moved between loyalties, seving their own interests. None of their central governments had the strength to force this lords to be loyal.

    That's just an example of how the Seljuk Empire was in fact fragile and susceptible of desintegration if the Sultan was not an iron ruler. Perhaps Malik Shah was a strong Sultan, but his dead is usually settled as the year of the desintegration of the Seljuk Empire, which is not correct. The Seljuk Empire, as most of the Western and Eastern kingoms in High Middle Ages Europe, was in fact the family and thier clan friends and allies. It was not a centralized Empire such as the Roman. It had little intern cohesion, and even lesser centralization or complete domain over the provinces and frontier regions. Mosul, Aleppo, Damascus, Khorasan, Basrah, Oman and other regions acted almost as independent rulers. That's why at the death of Malik Shah, the struggle for power between his four sons(4 or 5? I cannot recall well) led the empire to desintegration.

    So, I think that portraying the Seljuks as a unified great and poweful Empire is, from my point of view, a mistake.

    And other minor issues:

    I noticed that, in the map, Castille controls Valencia. That's another mistake, even if you say that Rodrigo Díaz de Vivar, El Cid, was a vassal of Castille. That's true, but El Cid always did what he wanted. What is more, one of the daughters of Rodrigo, called María, married with Ramon Berenguer III the Great, Count of Barcelona. One of the excuses given by king Jaume I of Aragon was that Valencia was him by inheritance, as the major surviving descendant of El Cid married his grand-grandfather.

    Besides, making Castille control Valencia would close Aragon's access to reconquer Muslim territories. Too early for that, I think.

    Just one last thing, related with Aragon again. In order to represent the naval and commercial power the Crown of Aragon had since the XIIth Century (one of the reasons for the conquest of Mallorca was their importance as commercial enclave and the fact that the Muslim lord of Mayurqa turned the Balearic islands into a pirates nest) I suggest the institution of the Consolat de Mar, meaning this Consulate of Sea. This was a commercial tribunal and also an institution to rule and regule Catalan trade over the Mediterranean.

    The Consulate had many "colonies" called Alfòndecs, in important trade cities of the Mediterranean, such as Genoa, Venice, Tunis, Marseille, Palermo, Alexandria and Constantinople, among others. Those colonies, very similar to what Genoa and Venice had, were not just trade centers and hostels for Catalan merchants, they were also embassies to other countries and spy bases. I think that this can lead to interesting characteristics for Aragon.

    As a curious tip, during the siege of Constantinople in 1453, a Catalan company of soldiers defended the sea walls of Boukoleon and the ruins of the Great Palace, lead by the Sea Consul Pere Julià. As far as I know, they all died.

    That's all.

    Take care!
    "Déu és beure bé, menjar fresc i llevar-se a les deu"
    (God is to drink well, to eat fresh and to wake up at ten)
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  2. #2

    Default Re: The Seljuk Empire and other issues

    The Great Seljuks empire is portrayed as a sort of a unified nation or rather, I think they have the transition option of becoming the most powerful empire in the game (not sure), then again, every kingdom is capable of this or at least, they should be.
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  3. #3
    Basileos's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: The Seljuk Empire and other issues

    Ok i will first start with the explanation about Spain.
    There are 2 maps.on the first map you see that Castilla-Leon owns Valencia, just like you see that thet own toledo. this isn't historical correct.at this time valencia and toledo were still muslim rebel states. but if you look at the second (geographical) map, you'll see that Castilla-Leon won only the upper North-West of Spain, without valencia, without toledo. in game spain doesn't start with these 2 cities, so you should not have to worry.

    about the great seljuks, or "Dogu Ve Batinin Cihan Devleti" (which means worldstate of east and west in turkish), they will start with a huge territory, because they had just conquered it. the great seljuks will be super powers, but they will meet many rebellions, representing a bit the Zangids of Mosul and Aleppo,the city of Damascus and many more. The great seljuks have Armenia, the crusader states, the ERE, the fatimids,georgia and the rebels as thier enemy, so i't won't be bad to have them as a super power. what you will see a continuous shift of losing and reconquering cities, representing the decentralised rule of the great seljuks.

    i hope i give an awnser to all your questions.

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  4. #4
    Copperknickers II's Avatar quaeri, si sapis
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    Default Re: The Seljuk Empire and other issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Basileos View Post
    About the great seljuks, or "Dothu Ve Batynyn Cihan-Devleti" (which means worldstate of east and west in turkish), they will start with a huge territory, because they had just conquered it. The great seljuks will be super powers, yes, but they will meet many rebellions, representing a bit the Zangids of Mosul and Aleppo,the city of Damascus and many many more. The great seljuks have Armenia, the crusader states, the ERE, the fatimids,georgia and the rebels as thier enemy, so it won't be bad to have them as a super power. what you will see a continuous shift of losing and reconquering cities, representing the decentralised rule of the great seljuks.

    i hope i give an awnser to all your questions.
    Following on from this, as you said (Alexius), the empire was held togther by fragile tribal alliances, but they start with a huge empire because the Seljuk 'phenomenon' involved a huge group of related people conquering a huge area. As a result of this you will start the game with huge unrest, rebellions of several important states that took place in the early 12th Century, and many areas under vassalship (ie your colour on the map, but pretty much autonomous).

    Also of course we have the Mongols, who come in and utterly destroy anything you have managed to hold on to, when you are given the option to surrender to them and become them.

    The Seljuk campaign will be alongside the Hre and Armenia, extremely hard.
    A new mobile phone tower went up in a town in the USA, and the local newspaper asked a number of people what they thought of it. Some said they noticed their cellphone reception was better. Some said they noticed the tower was affecting their health.

    A local administrator was asked to comment. He nodded sagely, and said simply: "Wow. And think about how much more pronounced these effects will be once the tower is actually operational."

  5. #5
    Basileos's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: The Seljuk Empire and other issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers View Post
    Following on from this, as you said (Alexius), the empire was held togther by fragile tribal alliances, but they start with a huge empire because the Seljuk 'phenomenon' involved a huge group of related people conquering a huge area. As a result of this you will start the game with huge unrest, rebellions of several important states that took place in the early 12th Century, and many areas under vassalship (ie your colour on the map, but pretty much autonomous).

    Also of course we have the Mongols, who come in and utterly destroy anything you have managed to hold on to, when you are given the option to surrender to them and become them.

    The Seljuk campaign will be alongside the Hre and Armenia, extremely hard.
    oh yeah i forgot the "homeland, colony and autonomous" possibility. sooner or later, you will notice that you have to make some settlements autonomous because of unrest.

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  6. #6

    Default Re: The Seljuk Empire and other issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Basileos View Post
    Ok i will first start with the explanation about Spain.
    There are 2 maps.on the first map you see that Castilla-Leon owns Valencia, just like you see that thet own toledo. this isn't historical correct.at this time valencia and toledo were still muslim rebel states. but if you look at the second (geographical) map, you'll see that Castilla-Leon won only the upper North-West of Spain, without valencia, without toledo. in game spain doesn't start with these 2 cities, so you should not have to worry.

    about the great seljuks, or "Dogu Ve Batinin Cihan Devleti" (which means worldstate of east and west in turkish), they will start with a huge territory, because they had just conquered it. the great seljuks will be super powers, but they will meet many rebellions, representing a bit the Zangids of Mosul and Aleppo,the city of Damascus and many more. The great seljuks have Armenia, the crusader states, the ERE, the fatimids,georgia and the rebels as thier enemy, so i't won't be bad to have them as a super power. what you will see a continuous shift of losing and reconquering cities, representing the decentralised rule of the great seljuks.

    i hope i give an awnser to all your questions.
    Mmmm, that's better than I expected. And concerning the Crusader States, I understood they would not appear in 1080.

    But a strong Seljuk Sultanate (with capital on Bagdad or Isfahan?) would make almost impossible to maintain any Crusader State in Holy Land.

    Anyway, I'm saisfied with the explanations. With this commentaries it's not my will to annoy or criticize for the pleasure of criticize. I just want to help this mod to be even better, as I said some weeks ago.

    And I'd like to congratulate DotS team once more for this extraordinary job you are doing. It's really amazing!

    Take care!
    "Déu és beure bé, menjar fresc i llevar-se a les deu"
    (God is to drink well, to eat fresh and to wake up at ten)
    ------ from the Catalan "Inquisition Trials Archive"



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  7. #7

    Default Re: The Seljuk Empire and other issues

    I don't think a dev answered me in the other threads. Is Khwarizmian empire an option for the seljuks to transition to?

  8. #8
    Basileos's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: The Seljuk Empire and other issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Ardeshir View Post
    I don't think a dev answered me in the other threads. Is Khwarizmian empire an option for the seljuks to transition to?
    No, the khwarezmian empire is not a transition option, but the mongols are.

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    Default Re: The Seljuk Empire and other issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Ardeshir View Post
    I don't think a dev answered me in the other threads. Is Khwarizmian empire an option for the seljuks to transition to?
    No, they will start off as an autonomous vassal and will be sort of like an emergent faction, given certain conditions.
    A new mobile phone tower went up in a town in the USA, and the local newspaper asked a number of people what they thought of it. Some said they noticed their cellphone reception was better. Some said they noticed the tower was affecting their health.

    A local administrator was asked to comment. He nodded sagely, and said simply: "Wow. And think about how much more pronounced these effects will be once the tower is actually operational."

  10. #10
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    Default Re: The Seljuk Empire and other issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers View Post
    No, they will start off as an autonomous vassal and will be sort of like an emergent faction, given certain conditions.
    This mod keeps sounding better and better...
    I must say that the level of detail that every region is recieving surprises me a lot!

  11. #11

    Default Re: The Seljuk Empire and other issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers View Post
    No, they will start off as an autonomous vassal and will be sort of like an emergent faction, given certain conditions.
    That's great. So all of these turkic successor states will be playable!

  12. #12
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    Default Re: The Seljuk Empire and other issues

    Well no, emergent, ie if you lose control of them they rebel and start fighting you .
    A new mobile phone tower went up in a town in the USA, and the local newspaper asked a number of people what they thought of it. Some said they noticed their cellphone reception was better. Some said they noticed the tower was affecting their health.

    A local administrator was asked to comment. He nodded sagely, and said simply: "Wow. And think about how much more pronounced these effects will be once the tower is actually operational."

  13. #13
    Laetus
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    Default Re: The Seljuk Empire and other issues

    suljuk empire is a turkish empire can you change it??And that times in medieval ages this empire was the glourious empire in the world!!

  14. #14
    Walkman810i's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: The Seljuk Empire and other issues

    Monaco was also a glorious empire...


  15. #15
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    Default Re: The Seljuk Empire and other issues

    Not really, it was on the decline by this point, though given a very good leader you could pull it back from the brink, repel the Mongols and conquer the Mediterranean. We have two Turkish factions, the Sultanate of Rum (later the Ottoman Turks) in Anatolia (modern turkey) and the Great Seljuks, a dynasty created by Nomadic Turkmen tribes from the east, who were not from modern 'turkey'.

    EDIT, that was at Toolga originally, though it still works with Monaco
    A new mobile phone tower went up in a town in the USA, and the local newspaper asked a number of people what they thought of it. Some said they noticed their cellphone reception was better. Some said they noticed the tower was affecting their health.

    A local administrator was asked to comment. He nodded sagely, and said simply: "Wow. And think about how much more pronounced these effects will be once the tower is actually operational."

  16. #16
    Walkman810i's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: The Seljuk Empire and other issues



  17. #17

    Default Re: The Seljuk Empire and other issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers View Post
    Not really, it was on the decline by this point, though given a very good leader you could pull it back from the brink, repel the Mongols and conquer the Mediterranean. We have two Turkish factions, the Sultanate of Rum (later the Ottoman Turks) in Anatolia (modern turkey) and the Great Seljuks, a dynasty created by Nomadic Turkmen tribes from the east, who were not from modern 'turkey'.

    EDIT, that was at Toolga originally, though it still works with Monaco
    That's the point: at the starting date, the Seljuk Empire was in decay, divided by familiar struggles and outer raids. With the death of Malik Shah's visir in 1092, administration became impossible, and Malik Shah himself would die a year later (possibly killed by the famous Assassins, but that's just a cool theory), happening then the Turkish fitna, same as the Caliphate of Cordoba, the atomization of the empire.

    But I like the inclusion of another power in Middle East, one able to broke the eternal fight between Egypt and the Turks of Rum. The danger now is to see if the Sultanate of Rum will be able to survive the attack of the Byzantine Empire, when it should be viceversa, actually.

    Take care!
    "Déu és beure bé, menjar fresc i llevar-se a les deu"
    (God is to drink well, to eat fresh and to wake up at ten)
    ------ from the Catalan "Inquisition Trials Archive"



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  18. #18
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    Default Re: The Seljuk Empire and other issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Alexios Komnenos View Post
    The danger now is to see if the Sultanate of Rum will be able to survive the attack of the Byzantine Empire, when it should be viceversa, actually.
    Yeah - I can see this happening, too... :hmmm:

  19. #19

    Default Re: The Seljuk Empire and other issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil 11 View Post
    Yeah - I can see this happening, too... :hmmm:
    Not so! The Comnenos family frequantly beat the Seljuks and made them a vassal state for a little while. All with a little crusader help of course.
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    Default Re: The Seljuk Empire and other issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikephorus16 View Post
    Not so! The Comnenos family frequantly beat the Seljuks and made them a vassal state for a little while. All with a little crusader help of course.
    Yes - this is what I hope will happen - sorry for not making myself clear!

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