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Thread: Morale

  1. #1
    Quinn Inuit's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Morale

    What does everyone think of morale in this game? Anyone think it should go up, down, or sideways?

    Oh, and we should also double-check the lethality values vs. skeleton and make sure they're normalized. Ouch. That could take awhile.

    I'd like to see morale standardized, with notable differences between unit types.

    One note: barb units would need to be impetuous in many cases. Does that give a bonus in melee like disciplined? I'd like to see barb units break faster than disciplined ones. I'd also like to see all units break after taking >50% casualties, but I don't think we can safely pull that off.

    Lowest: missile troops, levy troops
    Low: Mercenary troops, missile cavalry
    Medium: barbarian troops, regular line troops
    High: Good units, all cavalry
    Highest: Elite units

    What do you think of that list? Also, what values do you think we should attach to the levels? I was thinking 10, 12, 14, 16, and 18.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Morale

    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn Inuit View Post
    What does everyone think of morale in this game? Anyone think it should go up, down, or sideways?

    Oh, and we should also double-check the lethality values vs. skeleton and make sure they're normalized. Ouch. That could take awhile.

    I'd like to see morale standardized, with notable differences between unit types.

    One note: barb units would need to be impetuous in many cases. Does that give a bonus in melee like disciplined? I'd like to see barb units break faster than disciplined ones. I'd also like to see all units break after taking >50% casualties, but I don't think we can safely pull that off.

    Lowest: missile troops, levy troops
    Low: Mercenary troops, missile cavalry
    Medium: barbarian troops, regular line troops
    High: Good units, all cavalry
    Highest: Elite units

    What do you think of that list? Also, what values do you think we should attach to the levels? I was thinking 10, 12, 14, 16, and 18.
    I haven't seen any systematic issues with morale. I'd probably leave it be unless you're planning on doing a complete overhaul of unit stats.

    If you do decide to go this route, I think that you'll want pure missile troops to have lower morale so that cavalry getting into melee with them generally breaks them. I think that's why most missile units have a morale in the 5-6 range.

  3. #3
    Wien1938's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Morale

    Seems sensible.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Morale

    Morale is just fine as it is, imo

  5. #5
    AqD's Avatar 。◕‿◕。
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    Default Re: Morale

    I think the morale should go down to the vanilla's levels. Currently most units just wouldn't rout until they're nearly finished, or get charged by heavy cavalry from their back. In real world they should rout if they see no hope in winning. For instance, gallic armies are known to collapse when their frontal assault failed and exhausted, and sassanian armies are also know to break when their general got killed, and some levy units in macedon were recorded to run away before the battle began (against romans)

    Lowering the morale would also make the battle too fast to finish, which is probably why realistic mods like EB or RTR choosed to incrase it. But the effect can countered by giving everyone more HPs (2 or 3 is okay) or reduce missile attack & weapon lethality.
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    Last edited by AqD; September 20, 2011 at 09:28 AM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Morale

    No... Longer battles is just what makes RTR more fun... Your or the enemies' troops don't simply start routing upon seeing the enemy. It makes battles more difficult, more losses due to heavy fights

  7. #7
    AqD's Avatar 。◕‿◕。
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    Default Re: Morale

    But more losses are unrealistic. And shouldn't players think more about how to rout enemies rather than to kill them?
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    Last edited by AqD; September 20, 2011 at 09:28 AM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Morale

    I don't know... I'm no historian... You?

    congrats on 2000th post btw

  9. #9
    AqD's Avatar 。◕‿◕。
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    Default Re: Morale

    Quote Originally Posted by PatricianS View Post
    I don't know... I'm no historian... You?
    No but most of recorded battles ended with one side collapsed/routed. Killing is also rare during the actual fighting.

    BTW you should try the "realistic" battle system in Iberian Total War Gold. It doesn't cover eastern/persia/steppe styles though (missiles are overpowered ). It also lacks some features I found recently, but the battles are slow enough despite of low morale levels, and you just cannot win or even end the battle if you don't rout the enemies.

    PS: basically it gives everyone 1 or 2 attack, even lower lethality than in RTR, and morale 5-7 for good/elite units such as Principes.
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    Last edited by AqD; September 20, 2011 at 09:28 AM.

  10. #10
    Quinn Inuit's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Morale

    I admit, the amount of casualties units take is something that's been bugging me, too. I'd like to see units break more rapidly, but I don't want a return to Vanilla RTW insta-routs.

    I don't really like the low attack value, since I think it really reduces the variation between units. Also, troops did manage to kill each other, just not too rapidly.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Morale

    To me lowering the barbarians from the present moral state would be kind of bad. Sometimes I rout Gallic units just from my units throwing their pila at them.
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  12. #12
    AqD's Avatar 。◕‿◕。
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    Default Re: Morale

    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn Inuit View Post
    I admit, the amount of casualties units take is something that's been bugging me, too. I'd like to see units break more rapidly, but I don't want a return to Vanilla RTW insta-routs.

    I don't really like the low attack value, since I think it really reduces the variation between units. Also, troops did manage to kill each other, just not too rapidly.
    Yeah, but the variation in attack doesn't really matter for heavy-armoured units in RTR, such as Principes and Triarii. Because their defense is too high and a few increase or decrease in attack value isn't enough to make any difference, except for the autoresolved result.

    Another problem is unit stamina and AI's inhuman commanders (no rest until you're dead! ) - in slow battles AI just cannot win if the player holds defensively.

    The battle system in ITW is not perfect, but I think it still gives a feeling about how ancient battles should be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberius Tosi View Post
    To me lowering the barbarians from the present moral state would be kind of bad. Sometimes I rout Gallic units just from my units throwing their pila at them.
    They're routed because the pila killed too many instantly. The missiles are not supposed to be that strong
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    Last edited by AqD; September 20, 2011 at 09:28 AM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Morale

    My professor of ancient history once gave numbers of caualties of about 5% for the winning army and 10-15% for the losing side and about 25% when fighting romans. I don't think we should implement these kind of numbers; you would have to defeat the same army over and over again(just like fleets in vanilla). It would we more realistic if a routed army would largely disintegrate and return to the fields (especially mercenaries).

    BTW, I think the current situation in which you pretty much have to fight to the end is more enjoyable than having to chase most of the enemies down and then kill the anyway.

  14. #14
    AqD's Avatar 。◕‿◕。
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    Default Re: Morale

    Quote Originally Posted by Stijn View Post
    My professor of ancient history once gave numbers of caualties of about 5% for the winning army and 10-15% for the losing side and about 25% when fighting romans. I don't think we should implement these kind of numbers; you would have to defeat the same army over and over again(just like fleets in vanilla). It would we more realistic if a routed army would largely disintegrate and return to the fields (especially mercenaries).
    That's why you need light cavalry 10-15% is impossible because it's very easy to kill routed units in RTW, and the recovery rate wouldn't work for the losing side. However, 10-15% during the battle would be fine, at least far better than the current 50%-100%

    Quote Originally Posted by Stijn View Post
    BTW, I think the current situation in which you pretty much have to fight to the end is more enjoyable than having to chase most of the enemies down and then kill the anyway.
    But it's not realistic.

    However, there are problems with prolonged battles in RTW, especially the stamina. Because nobody is going to rest even when they're exhausted, and this gives huge advantage to the defense side as the attack side would always get tired too soon and break. I tried to make all units to have at least good stamina, but it's still not enough.
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    Last edited by AqD; September 20, 2011 at 09:29 AM.

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