Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Saturninus/Balbus

[Winter]

Island warfare without a fleet is a fool's errand. Even if it is for simple transport and supply, as well as calculated naval engagement, we cannot underestimate the value and impact it could have.

As to the matter of Greece and Epirus, I would advise that we first seek peace with the Epriotes. We are, after all, still technically in a state of open war with Epirus. Perhaps ending this conflict will allow them to withdraw their soldiers honorably. I am also quite in favor of allowing our merchants to exploit the riches of Greece, so trade agreements should be sought quickly.

[Snowball]

If i may propose a list of the things it seems we must do.

Peace with Epirote, trade rights with as many neighbors as possible, increased militarization, increased economic power

we also need to clear our territories of enemy forces, then comes my suggestion, we gather as many men as we can, and other necessities, and we invade Sicily, we take control over it. And in that manner increase our economic strength and our potential military strength, so we can take over Corsica and Sardinia.

Once we reach those goals, we may re-evaluate our position, but i think it is very important to have clear goals of what we want to achieve.

My friends, what i propose is not a short winded commitment, it is something that may take years to complete, we must be truly committed to this if we wish to survive, for if we are not...Then we should simply bow down to Carthage right away, and spare ourselves the effort of defending our honour, our people, our pride as Romans.

[Selifator]

I have spoken with Marcus Claudius on this, and we are of like minds. Senators, what we are speaking of here, will shape our republic for decades to come. Outnumbered our forces will invade enemy territory, take their cities, and crush them.
This is what we are speaking of, and we can not take this lightly. We have the recourses for one legion, while Carthage can support many armies. That we have seen no greater forces of them, is simply because they can afford to. So senators, if we will begin preparations for a war against Carthage, let us prepare in Italy first. Assemble the legion, let it gather experience against rebels, then send it to war.

[Lord Kal]

Caelinus is right. The legion must consist of experienced men. We are asking a single legion to cross to Sicily, drive the Carthaginian armies from it's shores, and hold it against the inevitable counter-attacks. If our soldiers are still wet behind the ears, we might as well not bother. So let them practice on rebels, and let this house nominate the most seasoned commander we have to undertake this great effort.

[Selifator]

Thank you Senator Crassus, what we must realise is that this campaign might take a long time to complete. Our legion will need to hold a city untill unrest has subsided and a garisson has been provided for. And this must be done with each city. What we might be able to do is recruit another legion as money starts to flow in. The early stage of this campaign will therefore be crucial. Succes, and we shall have Sicily in our hands. Failure, and we have no army left and will be defenceless save our garrison forces.

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

I support this anti-Carthaginian endeavour wholeheartedly!

[Selifator]

I would not call it anti-Carthaginian as much as pro-Rome. Right now, our situation amongst nations is far from secure, hence the intrusions by foreign forces. A campaign such as this will give a clear sign to all that Rome has not lost power and is gathering more every moment. Still, you support is more than welcome. Senators, please speak on this!

[Kritias]

Avlvs Postvmivs Albinvs says:

Sacred Conscript Fathers,

I am of the opinion that we are in no position to start an agressive war on Carthage. Many have spoken their minds about the matter, many have supported our conquering Sicily or Sardinia or Corsica. I sincerely believe that any such course is simply and plainly not realistic at the time being.

The Quaestor, Cassius Flavius, has spoken already about the state of our economy. From his report anyone can make out that any force bigger than a legion will cripple our economy for good. And, constructing ships to invade the islands in question, will eat away our funds fast - very fast.

I propose then that we fight a prolongued but defensive war until our economy is strong enough to take the Carthaginians head on in Sicily and Sardinia. Let us construct defensive fortifications close to Rhegium in order to stop the Carthaginians slipping in Italy. Then, we can discuss sending a legion to secure a foothold in Sicilia proper, something that Senator Caelinus has proposed already.

[Snowball]

OoC: why is everyone giving seli credit for my suggestions!? grrrrr

[Lord Kal]

Senator Albinus, let me speak from the viewpoint of a man who once held your views.

It is true that a war against Carthage carries with it a great risk. Initially, I felt we could not handle such a task, for reasons I outlined in previous speeches to this house.

However, our economy shows our need to expand Rome's borders. If we do not become a more powerful force quickly, we will condemn ourselves to extinction. And there is no way to do this other than by conquering new lands. To preserve our sovereignty within our original lands is no longer enough, or our enemies will outgrow us and overwhelm us.

Previously I believed we could march north and seize the Italian peninsula before directing our efforts on Carthage. But the military reports for northern italy are distressing, indicating a force that while, granted, is less organised and united than Carthage, is more numerous, more experienced, and far more determined.

If you were to offer me the choice between peace and a defensive war with Carthage, I would choose peace. A defensive war with Carthage is the absolute worst thing we could do at this moment. It would do nothing but be a colossal drain on our resources, and all but destroy our potential for expansion. If we make war with Carthage, it is imperative that we strike them where it will hurt them most early on. Reports indicate that Sicily is severely under-strengthed to resist a full-scale direct attack with a full legion. I have faith in the ability of our soldiers and commanders to drive the foe from Sicily with a minimum of losses, and once this is accomplished, our task will be made much easier.

[Kritias]

Avlvs Postvmivs Albinvs:

I disagree. Firstly, an all out war with Carthage is the option that will drain our coffers dry; a prolongued defensive conflict of attrition will suit us best. Let us delay the major conflict, eating away the provinces of the enemy with a big force at each time and then make sure that the conquered land is safe and secure - that is the way to successfully win a war against Carthage.

I cede the fact that our treasury needs a quick boost of money in order to be functional. However, a generalized conflict would doubtlessly cripple our economy; in order to achieve the necessary military force to take over the whole of Sicily and the islands of Corsica and Sardinia, we'll have to postpone severely our financial programs. Further, we cannot know if the investment of thousands of denarii on more troops - inexperienced troops - will return the money invested with some reasonable profit once the conquering march has began.

Lastly, let me remind the Senate that the cost of building and, further, maintaining a navy to carry our soldiers across to Corsica and Sardinia will eat away a very important part of the treasury funds that could be best invested on foot troops.

Therefore, I propose that we assume a stronger taxing policy for the time being, in order to make up for the money needed in our war. I would go as far as to propose asking tributes from our current enemies that the House wants to reconciliate, namely Epirus, in return for our peace treaty and trade rights. Naturally, we can extend the same offer on to the Aedui in the north, if the House agrees.

[Snowball]

If we follow my suggestion we would only look to Corsica and Sardinia AFTER we have taken Siciliy, and siciliy would no doubt put is in a much stronger financial position.

[Kritias]

Avlvs Postvmivs Albinvs:

Marcus Claudius, indeed if we follow your suggestion we will have to take on the islands only after we have dealt with Sicily. But taking over Sicily will require many troops and supplies and, finally, money to not only conquer but also tame and maintain.

Sure, I do not object to the inevitability of a war with Carthage. But we are supposed to fight this war to the best of our potential in order to be able to come on top. Wasting money and manpower on reckless operations too soon will not win the war for us.

Gentlemen, we must take our time. The Carthaginians do not pose an immediate threat to our existence, not at the time being at least. So, I suggest, instead of acting rushly and over-spreading our recourses that we keep a cool head as to the future prospects. Let us firstly secure the Southern Italy. Then we can gain Messana to our control; and then, we can have a foothold to take over Sicilia. Once that is over, and it should take a while, we can talk again of the next step. But the priority here MUST be the conquest of Sicily.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Senators, please do not forget the situation with the rebels in the north and the fact that as of right now, Carthage has not pillaged any Roman land or shown aggression other than the mere presence of their troops. If anything there presence should ease our minds, knowing that our friends stand ready to aid in any domestic threat that should arise.

Of course, some of you are paranoid about their presence, however small, and to this minority I say worry not. Any legion is capable of defeating a band of lost spearmen.

[Lord Kal]

Senator, you agree that we need an injection of cash, yet you support a defensive war. A war which will serve as a drain on our coffers and give us NO financial benefit whatsoever.

[Kritias]

Avlvs Postvmivs Albinvs:

And where do you see, Cassius Flavius, the irregularity? I suggest a defensive war for the first few years. A war that will not generate us the money from looting towns or selling slaves BUT a war that will ALSO not require thousands upon thousands of invested denarii in order to be won.

I suggest of a war where we won't be obliged to tax our allies and our citizens in excess, a war where we won't spend what little saving we have in our Treasury. I suggest of a delaying tactic, if you will, in order to come on top the most intact.

[Kneißl]

I agree with Senator Albinus. A defensive war would not only stop our coffers from draining, but it will give our troops more experience; experience needed for later campaigns. I say let the fool Carthaginians wear themselves down on our shields, it will only hurt THEM. They will have to pay to replenish lost troops.

[Lord Kal]

How, then, is this at all preferable to simply biding our time and building our forces and striking suddenly? This would reduce the need to maintain costly garrisons and border defences and would not have a negative effect on our trade routes. If we do this, we neither lose nor gain money. If we attack Carthage in Sicily, we lose money and also gain it. If we follow your absurd plan, we lose money and gain nothing.

And if it's training you want, I know a certain Etruscan mob waiting for our swords.

[Snowball]

Albinus, my suggestion does not require "haste" in that we rush things, it does require a clear goal, and a steadfastness to reach that goal.

If you read it, you will see that the first point is to secure our territories, clear them of enemies. Then we assemble a force to go to Siciliy, this means we take as much time as we must to gather the forces necessary for an incursion into Siciliy.

The way i see it, we are of like minds.

As for you Senator [Pontifex] i truly wish i was as naive as you, it must be...a trouble free existence indeed.

[Kneißl]

Ignorance is bliss my fellow Senators, have you not heard the rest of his speech, or maybe your bloodthirsty hearts cry for suffering?Senator Albinus also is proposing to raise taxes and ask for tributes, which we will pay back later .This will fill the coffers with much needed denarii.