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Thread: [Research] The Relationship between Saladin and Lionheart

  1. #1
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    Default [Research] The Relationship between Saladin and Lionheart

    Hey everyone.

    Long story short...I'm doing a History research project, as part of an extended project qualification and what is required is at least 5,000 words, and I am not quite sure what to base it on. Although, my initial choice is are either researching the relationship between Mehmed II and Constantine or the relationship between Salahadin and Richard the Lionheart during the Third Crusade...seeing as I have to decide this within two days [Wednesday] I have chosen to go with that one as I am most interested in them and their profound stories.

    Alas the reason I am here is to request a little bit of help, if anyone is willing. What I am really in need of is;


    • Some good websites and sources which have a lot of information on this particular topic
    • Any books which may be of use on those two particular subjects
    • Any information anyone here is willing to share on the mentioned area

    I have chosen Saladin and Lionheart as a lot more information is available on them and much more books. I would be eternally grateful for any help, and any support... thanks in advance.


    Note [this doesn't have to be original research, but just research, 5,000 word essay, well presented - have question then finding the answer type thing-.]


    -----

    Books.


    • Warriors of God : Richard the Lionheart and Saladin in the Third Crusade by James Reston [New York : Anchor Books, 2002]
    • Lionhearts : Saladin, Richard I, and the era of the Third Crusade by Geoffrey Regan [New York : Walker, 1999]
    • The Crusades. An Encyclopedia. Editor Alan W. Murray.
    • The Itinerary of Richard I and Others to the Holy Land, a primary source document by Geoffrey de Vinsauf; here.

    • Chronicles of the Crusades : being contemporary narratives of the crusade of Richard Coeur de Lion / by Richard of Devizes and Geoffrey de Vinsauf ; and of the crusade of St. Louis, by Lord John de Joinville, (London ; H. G. Bohn, 1848; reissued New York: AMS, 1969)
    • Crusades Islamic Perspectives. Carole Hillenbrand
    • Peter Milger's The Crusades: War in the Name of God.

    • Recueil des historiens des Croisades, (Paris, Imprimerie royale, 1841-1906), 16 Vols
    • The Crusades Through Arab Eyes by Amin Maalouf
    • Zoe Oldenbourg's The Crusades
    • Lionhearts : Saladin, Richard I, and the era of the Third Crusade Geoffrey Regan [1999, 1998 English Book xxv, 254 p. : ill., maps; 24 cm.
      New York : Walker, ; ISBN: 0802713548 9780802713544]


    -----


    Sources [websites]










    Authors.


    • Jonathan Riley Smith


    ----

    Movies


    • Holy warriors
      Richard the Lionheart & Saladin /
      Richard Bedser from 2005



    Last edited by Каие; October 21, 2008 at 12:34 PM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: [Research Project] Relationship between Saladin/Lionheart and-or Mehmed/Constantine

    No one at all?

  3. #3
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: [Research Project] Relationship between Saladin/Lionheart and-or Mehmed/Constantine

    Mmm... I always think Saladin/Lionheart relation is similar as Monty/Rommel relation...

  4. #4
    Odovacar's Avatar I am with Europe!
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    Default Re: [Research Project] Relationship between Saladin/Lionheart and-or Mehmed/Constantine

    1,. If you nly start reading now you are already late.
    2, dont use websites
    3, I dunno how many articles were written about the connection between these two men, if you have jstor access you can look for special articles.
    Otherwise read pretty essential works which deal with the events like Runciman.
    For in depth analysis I dunno...

    Edit: some books to look into:
    -Jonathan Philips: The Crusades
    Last edited by Odovacar; October 20, 2008 at 04:17 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB HORSEARCHER
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    Marcus Trajan's Avatar Pater Exercituum
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    Default Re: [Research Project] Relationship between Saladin/Lionheart and-or Mehmed/Constantine

    I recommend,

    Warriors of God : Richard the Lionheart and Saladin in the Third Crusade by James Reston
    New York : Anchor Books, 2002
    and,

    Lionhearts : Saladin, Richard I, and the era of the Third Crusade by Geoffrey Regan
    New York : Walker, 1999

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    Default Re: [Research Project] Relationship between Saladin/Lionheart and-or Mehmed/Constantine

    Thank you very much for the suggestions, I'll get right on it. [Nothing is ever too late for me, it's how I get things done ]

    If you have any more links, or books,please do feel free to post them. + REP for all.

  7. #7

    Default Re: [Research Project] Relationship between Saladin/Lionheart and-or Mehmed/Constantine

    Lionhearts : Saladin, Richard I, and the era of the Third Crusade by Geoffrey Regan
    New York : Walker, 1999
    Seconded.

    Regarding a relationship between Mehmet and Constantine, that is going to be hard to discern because of the scarcity of sources. It has been reported (by Runciman I think?) that Constantine was offered safe passage to the Morean Despotate if he would relinquish the city, but was refused. That's all I can think of, really?

    5,000 words, that's how many pages, 10 double-spaced? Brave topic for such a thing. Though I suppose it wouldn't be very difficult to pump out a good volume covering Saladin and Richard, seeing as how it's been done before. I'd like to see what you could come up with for the second duo, though.
    Last edited by motiv-8; October 20, 2008 at 04:59 PM.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: [Research Project] Relationship between Saladin/Lionheart and-or Mehmed/Constantine

    To those books particularly mention their relationship/attitude to each other? If so, I will abandon the Mehmed/Constantine and go for the Crusaders.

  9. #9

    Default Re: [Research] The Relationship between Saladin and Lionheart

    IIRC Saladin and Richard actually corresponded directly to each other, and this correspondence survives in said books.

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    Default Re: [Research] The Relationship between Saladin and Lionheart

    Fantastic, perfect then. I will rush out to the library and acquire them, I am reliably told Leeds is the second best centre for Medieval research in the world after Michigan [? I think that was it].

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    Odovacar's Avatar I am with Europe!
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    Default Re: [Research] The Relationship between Saladin and Lionheart

    The Crusades. An Encyclopedia. Editor Alan W. Murray.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB HORSEARCHER
    quis enim dubitat quin multis iam saeculis, ex quo vires illius ad Romanorum nomen accesserint, Italia quidem sit gentium domina gloriae vetustate sed Pannonia virtute

    Sorry Armenia, for the rascals who lead us.


  12. #12

    Default Re: [Research] The Relationship between Saladin and Lionheart

    Also try The Itinerary of Richard I and Others to the Holy Land, a primary source document by Geoffrey de Vinsauf; available here.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: [Research Project] Relationship between Saladin/Lionheart and-or Mehmed/Constantine

    Quote Originally Posted by motiv-8 View Post
    Regarding a relationship between Mehmet and Constantine, that is going to be hard to discern because of the scarcity of sources. It has been reported (by Runciman I think?) that Constantine was offered safe passage to the Morean Despotate if he would relinquish the city, but was refused. That's all I can think of, really?
    That was my original thinking too, I also read about how Constantine wanted to marry his mother but no source on Mehmed's reaction to that. It has also been said Mehmed had an obsession with the Roman Caesar title, but the only real correspondence I can see between them is when he offered him a different title, and when Constantine threatened to release an Ottoman pretender.

    Anyhow, I have decided to drop those two. Simply too hard in the time I have, less than 6 months.

    5,000 words, that's how many pages, 10 double-spaced? Brave topic for such a thing. Though I suppose it wouldn't be very difficult to pump out a good volume covering Saladin and Richard, seeing as how it's been done before. I'd like to see what you could come up with for the second duo, though.
    There's no way I could the second duo effectively, so I'll just do Lionheart, they've been done to death anyway. Thanks for the help.

    ------


    Quote Originally Posted by Odovacar View Post
    The Crusades. An Encyclopedia. Editor Alan W. Murray.
    Is that online or a book?

  14. #14

    Default Re: [Research] The Relationship between Saladin and Lionheart

    There's been an incredible amount of information on this topic produced in the last 10 years -- including some first time translations of Arabic Chronicles.

    For starters though, motiv-8 has it right, you will want to look at:

    Richard of Devizes
    Chronicles of the Crusades : being contemporary narratives of the crusade of Richard Coeur de Lion / by Richard of Devizes and Geoffrey de Vinsauf ; and of the crusade of St. Louis, by Lord John de Joinville, (London ; H. G. Bohn, 1848; reissued New York: AMS, 1969)


    Jonathan Riley Smith sort rules the British Crusades historiography at the moment and I think he's way way way way way to --for lack of better term -- liberal (Riley Smith gives the impression that the Arabs never killed anyone until the crusaders showed up.)

    I think Thomas F. Madden, an American, is more balanced.

    I like Carole Hillenbrand's book Crusades Islamic Perspectives. -- That's general

    As far as Saladin is concerned his was a legendary figure while he was still alive. So much of what we know about him is presumed to be hyperbole.

    For a quick overview --with neat pictures -- i.e. to give you an idea of what else you might want to look at -- See Peter Milger's The Crusades: War in the Name of God.

    Stuff to keep clear at the beginning:

    1. We have no evidence whatsoever that Richard was gay and much to suggest he wasn't -- avoid sources that make Richard's sexuality the center of the discussion -- fact is, we don't know much about it.

    2. Saladin was actually more far, more merciful and more pious. Like it or not. But he was still a medieval butcher to a certain extent, like every one else in the Middle Ages -- so try keep the balance in your mind when reading.

    -- don't forget to check French sources too:
    Recueil des historiens des Croisades, (Paris, Imprimerie royale, 1841-1906), 16 Vols

    Just came across this --

    Philippe Menard, "Les combattants en Terre sainte au temps de Saladin et de Richard Couer de Lion"

    anyway that's all I can think of for now -- I recall their being some History Channel stuff on Youtube -- for starters too:

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    Odovacar's Avatar I am with Europe!
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    Default Re: [Research] The Relationship between Saladin and Lionheart

    Its a book.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB HORSEARCHER
    quis enim dubitat quin multis iam saeculis, ex quo vires illius ad Romanorum nomen accesserint, Italia quidem sit gentium domina gloriae vetustate sed Pannonia virtute

    Sorry Armenia, for the rascals who lead us.


  16. #16

    Default Re: [Research] The Relationship between Saladin and Lionheart

    I like Carole Hillenbrand's book Crusades Islamic Perspectives. -- That's general
    Yes indeed. There's also The Crusades Through Arab Eyes by Amin Maalouf, though off the top of my head I can't remember if it includes sources for Saladin as well.

    Jonathan Riley Smith sort rules the British Crusades historiography at the moment and I think he's way way way way way to --for lack of better term -- liberal (Riley Smith gives the impression that the Arabs never killed anyone until the crusaders showed up.)
    Apologetic is the word you're looking for, I think.

    I use Zoe Oldenbourg's The Crusades as my go-to source.

  17. #17

    Default Re: [Research] The Relationship between Saladin and Lionheart

    Quote Originally Posted by motiv-8 View Post
    Yes indeed. There's also The Crusades Through Arab Eyes by Amin Maalouf, though off the top of my head I can't remember if it includes sources for Saladin as well.


    Apologetic is the word you're looking for, I think.

    I use Zoe Oldenbourg's The Crusades as my go-to source.
    Yeah thanks -- apologetic was indeed the term -- Terry Jones sort of spreads the Gospel of Riley Smith and unnecessarily skews the picture. In order, for any critique to take place, it's got to sharp, if it's too sympathetic, unsympathetic ears will deny it all together.
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  18. #18
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    Default Re: [Research] The Relationship between Saladin and Lionheart

    Ok thanks again guys. I'll collect all the book names and sites and put them in the OP, then point me out to what I've missed.

    Hows that list? Have I missed anything suggested?
    Last edited by Valus; October 21, 2008 at 09:11 AM. Reason: double post

  19. #19
    Ahlerich's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: [Research] The Relationship between Saladin and Lionheart

    richard and saladin - classic. shakespeare used their story to come up with the fictional romeo and juliet

  20. #20

    Default Re: [Research] The Relationship between Saladin and Lionheart

    More primary sources related to Richard The Lion Heart:

    ROGER DE HOVEDEN,. The Annals vol.1-2
    RICHARD of DEVIZES. Chronicle of the deeds of Richard I


    Also interesting details might be found here:

    ROSEBAULT, CHARLES J. Saladin. Prince of Chivalri.
    Saladin and Richard


    BESANT W. PALMER E. Jerusalem, the city of Herod and Saladin
    C H A P T E R X V.
    RICHARD COEUR DE LION AND THE THIRD CRUSADE


    ADDISON Ch. The history of the Knights Templars, Temple Churche, and the Temple
    CHAPTER VII.
    Richard Coeur de Lion joins the Templars before Acre—The city surrenders, and the Templars establish the chief house of their order within it—Coeur de Lion takes up his abode with them—He sells to them the island of Cyprus— The Templars form the van of his army—Their foraging expeditions and great exploits—Coeur de Lion quits the Holy Land in the disguise of a Knight Templar

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