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Thread: A basic explanation of unit sizes of the day. Battalion etc

  1. #1

    Default A basic explanation of unit sizes of the day. Battalion etc

    I was thinking to myself how will ETW stack up historically with regard to scale and unit composition. So I have drawn up a basic explanation of the formations of the day and what they consist of.
    I have also included a pic so people get an idea in their head of how big an army would have been. This also brings to light what a massive undertaking it was to move and maneover the army. Feed the army etc.

    This picture (fig1) below shows an infantry battalion of Napoleonic times.
    Essentially each block is one company of 100 men. their are 10 companies of 100 men which make up the 1000 man battalion. You will note that the Battalion has one set of colours(flags) in the middle.

    Fig1


    An army of the day had in basic terms.......

    Company = 100 men
    Battalion\regiment = 1000 men : (8 line, 1 light infantry, 1 grenadier company)
    Brigade = 3-4 Infantry Battlaions = 3000 (or 4000) men
    Division = 3-4 Brigades + arty brigade = 9000 - 12000 men + arty
    Army = 10 divisions + Cavalry Division = 90,000 men + arty + 9000 cavalry
    + General staff, scouts/guides, field train (supplies)

    Keep in mind that it was the Battalion (also called regiment) formation that usually had a name associated for battle records and recognition. Names such as 42nd Battalion Black Watch or Coldstream guards. However you will also often see many battalions of the same name but different number serving in different formations. An example would be 1st battalion 60th foot then 2nd battlaion 60th foot. This would usually be the result of the same administrative unit at home raising a 2nd, 3rd or more unit under their 1st units name. It was common to have a Battalion or Companies at home to train and raise raw recruits while the real one was in the field. Thus the difference between a regiment and a battalion, regiment being more administrative. The regiment included the administration at home, any recruitment or reserve forces + the units in the field + any other units in the field that were raised by the regimental administration.
    In some armies a regiment may consist of two battalions plus a couple of companies at home that trained new recruits. Suffice to say that regiment is a confusing bloody topic!!!
    Oh and to make it even more confusing during peace time some units get merged to become two numbers e.g. 12/14 lol Then u have two unit histories for the same unit!!!

    Now in ETW I am assumeing we are getting 20 units at about 100 men each. Thats enough, if we take 3 units away for arty and cavalry, to make 1.5 battalions. This would have been considered to be a skirmish taking approx 2% of an armies strength to carry out.
    LArger armies of the day approached 300-500,000 men in a typical European army.
    Although it was even common to have armies in th 30,000 - 60,000 men size. Especially earlier in the period. A typical ETW engagement will still only represent a tiny percentage of a real army

    What would be really cool though, is if CA somehow simulated the regimental and army systems of the day. Supplies, replacements coming from units home towns etc

    That is why I still dream of something a cross between the game 2nd manassass and total war. I want the strat map and graphics from total war and the tactical map and scale of 2nd manassass.

    I can however deal with the scale, I am sure I will be dissappointed by the map size however

    I understand the need to limit numbers on the field because:

    a) The pathing issues would be crazy
    b) Earlier computers could not handle the numbers
    c) The map just aint big enough!!
    d) this game is really about skirmish sized battles. If only they found a way of linking them all into
    a meaningfull battle! Many small battles making up a large one somehow.
    e) They are not really interested in actually simulating the warfare of the day? Well I have to admit thats probably just a throw away comment!
    Last edited by Destraex; October 18, 2008 at 12:37 AM.

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  2. #2
    Soryn Arkayn's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: A basic explanation of unit sizes of the day. Battalion etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Destraex View Post
    Larger armies of the day approached the million mark. It was not uncommon to have 300-500,000 men in a typical European army.
    Although it was even common to have armies in th 30,000 - 60,000 men size. Especially earlier in the period. A typical ETW engagement will still only represent a tiny percentage of a real army
    There's a major difference between all of the available fighting men in a nation and those employed as professional soldiers in a standing army. At the height of Napoleon Bonaparte's power -- just before he invaded Russian -- it's estimated his French Imperial army numbered approximately 400,000, which was unprecedented for a Western European nation in that era. When Bonaparte escaped Elba and reclaimed the French throne the French Army was only ~50,000 -- which was probably the norm for a standing army in peace-time in that era. By the Battle of Waterloo Napoleon had an army of 200,000 and an estimated 60,000 more in training. At the Battle of Waterloo Napoleon's "northern army" had ~70,000 soldiers and fought against the Seventh Coalition army of ~120,000.

    IMO a faction army of 100,000 soldiers seems reasonable; but I doubt in E:TW that the player's late-campaign army will ever exceed 50,000.

  3. #3

    Default Re: A basic explanation of unit sizes of the day. Battalion etc

    Also, just to point out, battalions tended to be between 600 and 700 men apiece. It just so happened that British battalions were much larger, since a British regiment only had two battalions, only one of which was deployed, while most continental armies had a three-battalion per regiment system, wherein only one battalion was held in depot.

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    magpie's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: A basic explanation of unit sizes of the day. Battalion etc

    Hi Destraex, Excellent post .
    A couple of things on unit size with ETW. I think we are being given 20 units of up to 250 men about the same as Kingdoms.
    It would also be great if CA could allow the gamer, control over AI reinforcements as suggested in other threads by contributers.
    Maybe if this was allowed we could then combine armies to make up a fairly substantial battle more inkeeping with the time.
    Just had a thought, If the AI reinforcements could be added on the same line of path that your main army starts, so they follow on to the battlefield as if they were part of the one army.
    Perhaps the reinforcements could also be named as reserves under such and such a commander of 2nd brigade of your army ect.
    regards magpie.
    Last edited by magpie; October 18, 2008 at 02:28 PM. Reason: new suggestion

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    Ketchup's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: A basic explanation of unit sizes of the day. Battalion etc

    Yes, I agree with magpie. If we could control ai reinforcements with more options than just "attack, defend or stand still" then we could have fairly big battles. E.g 2 on 2 would equal roughly 12000 men on the field! Which is pretty cool.

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  6. #6

    Default Re: A basic explanation of unit sizes of the day. Battalion etc

    Excellent post, though bare in mind that this is a description of the Brtitish system in the Napoleonic wars. As most of the game predates this, these systems were somewhat less developed.
    While most armies had grenadier and line companies, light companies did not begin to appear until the later half of the 18th Century. The majority of regiments were single battalion formations, though there were examples of more than one battalion regiments. In any case a battalion was the main fighting and manoeuvring unit for a general (companies and platoons were internal structures to a battalion and in the usual course of events were not detached). A number of battalions were grouped into a brigade, but these were otfen ad hoc organisations to suit the particular circumstances and were not fixed in composition. The division and corps are late century developments of organisation, prior to that brigades would be formed into "wings" or "lines", but again these allocations might be limited to the day of battle. As armies get bigger generals began to appreciate that more efficent methods of organistion were necessary given that it was difficult to command huge numbers of men with the limited communications of the day.

  7. #7

    Default Re: A basic explanation of unit sizes of the day. Battalion etc

    Fine post Destraex, but you show british organisation and it was not representative for other continental sysem in European and Asian armies. So more, basic tacitical units had different number of men and organisation at that period. Battalions had from 400 to 1200 men average it gives 800 men and near the same number (840) had standard battalion in French model army which was implemented in some other countries in Europe in 1808.

    I think in the game is hard to implement 1:1 scale for number of men. Let's better 10 men in the game represent 100 men in real word. Then basic tactical units infantry battalion could have 80 men in the game plus one drummer, one flag-bearer and 1 officer. It will be enough. For specialised troops as sappers and sharpshooters I propose only 15 men units which could represent one company in the game.

    More problematic are cavalry units. Basic tactical unit from that period was often cavalry squadron which had from 80 to 250 men. Small squadrons fought many times in group which include few squads. Big cavalry squadron operate many times as independent unit. Therefore for cavalry in the game one unit could have 25 men, plus one trumpeter, one flag-bearer and one officer.

    These smaller units will have less men but it could be useful in the game. At last less men could give less problems.

    And maybe CA could implement more complex order in army organisation. I mean brigades, divisions and corpses and their commanders - generals or marshals with groups of units on the battlefield.

    If it will possible they could give also more than 20 units in action. Yesterday I put one dream in that matter in another thread 'The benefits of having larger unit limts'. You can find it I think.

  8. #8

    Default Re: A basic explanation of unit sizes of the day. Battalion etc

    Nice original post - a bit hazy, but I liked it. You've got the same Osprey book as me!
    Whilst the 'ideal' size of a battalion was 1000, they almost never reached that number in active service. I've read of battalions being around 240 men in one extreme, and a battalion (either one of the Scottish or Irish regiments) taking the field with over 1100. But average battalions would comprise around 700 or 800.

    Whilst true that most regiments comprised 1 or 2 battalions, the 95th had 3, and the 60th might even have held 7, from the sources I've been looking at.

    For me, my ideal TW game would see you recruiting companies, which would be formed into battalions, or sent to assist other army stacks. Battalions would in turn form regiments.
    Each regiment would have a info-page, as generals have in current TW games. These info-pages would list the regimental battle-honours, and black-points too. Also listing unit traits, and ancillaries, which would affect performance on the field, and on the campaign map. From these pages, you could also name your regiment, train up the troops to a higher standard, recruit replacements or further battalions.
    Perhaps (this is really where I start dreaming) from this page, you can also customise uniform details - but this is never going to happen, is it?
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  9. #9

    Default Re: A basic explanation of unit sizes of the day. Battalion etc

    thanks for the responses.
    Like I said in my original post "basic idea" for those that have no idea what the terms mean.
    I'm pretty sure a lot of people see the terms in movies or games but have no idea what they are supposed to represent. What their "power" in men is if you like.

    So most of you are saying that I should be adding the regiment as a formation that consists of two active field battalions and a reserve battalion as the norm for most armies of the period.
    Battalion stength should be adjusted to 600-700 men on average for most nations.

    And that most armies consisted of 30,000 - 50,000 being more normal for most nations.

    Has CA commented as to whether they will even depict formations and allow tactics or strategy based on these? It will be especially good if the whole re-enforcement pool at home is simulated.
    Last edited by Destraex; October 18, 2008 at 07:01 PM.

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  10. #10

    Default Re: A basic explanation of unit sizes of the day. Battalion etc

    When the battalions were marching into battle they were two lines deep. And All 2 lines fire, one musketeer behind the other.


  11. #11

    Default Re: A basic explanation of unit sizes of the day. Battalion etc

    Quote Originally Posted by alienware11 View Post
    When the battalions were marching into battle they were two lines deep. And All 2 lines fire, one musketeer behind the other.
    Oh, many nations used 3 lines, sometimes 4 lines, but if battalions were marching into battle in column or mix formation it was more complicated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Destraex
    Battalion stength should be adjusted to 600-700 men on average for most nations.

    And that most armies consisted of 30,000 - 50,000 being more normal for most nations.
    But it is imposible put these numbers into ETW. Lags will destroy the game.

  12. #12
    Primicerius
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    Default Re: A basic explanation of unit sizes of the day. Battalion etc

    3000 is already a very large army in total war games ('huge' settings for troop #'s). Equivalant to "army" size in the OP description. 500 should be 1 battalion, in guestimates.

    all of course using 'huge' settings.

  13. #13

    Default Re: A basic explanation of unit sizes of the day. Battalion etc

    Well at ~ 500 being a reasonable depleted Battlaion we could have around 4Battalions on huge settings. With a couple of slots free for cavalry and arty.
    Thats close ot a Brigade

    P.S. Boyar Son.... that signature of yours is a bit of a conversation starter.
    Its similar to what I have heard from people who still believe in Santa
    Seriously though. how can you hastle people for believing in something that has no proof.... their is no argument for
    that kinda thing. You believe or you don't. Its that simple in the end.
    Last edited by Destraex; October 19, 2008 at 10:23 PM.

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  14. #14

    Default Re: A basic explanation of unit sizes of the day. Battalion etc

    Although it is an abstraction, the 100 to 200 men of a unit in a total war game is equivelent to a battalion, despite being about a company in numerical size. Its fairly clear that units are representational, rather than a 1:1 recreation of of armies, its more like something like 1:5 to 1:10, in terms of unit compostion, an army of 20 batalions is slightly different as army compositions vary widely.

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    Ketchup's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: A basic explanation of unit sizes of the day. Battalion etc

    I'm pretty sure that the unit scale will be about 1:20. In other words we will be leading "Battalion-sized" forces of 3-4000 men and treating them as if they are "Armies" of ~60000 men. Basically, the same as it's been since Rome!

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    Soryn Arkayn's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: A basic explanation of unit sizes of the day. Battalion etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Ketchup View Post
    I'm pretty sure that the unit scale will be about 1:20. In other words we will be leading "Battalion-sized" forces of 3-4000 men and treating them as if they are "Armies" of ~60000 men. Basically, the same as it's been since Rome!
    I disagree with your interpretation of unit scale because full army stacks of 3000-4000 soldiers is normal in a TW game, but historical battles involving 60,000 or more soldier on each side were rare.

    IMO the unit scale should be 1:4 so that a company of 150 soldiers could be scaled up to a small battalon of 600 soldiers. (BTW, a battalion usually consists of 4-to-6 companies, so a 1:4 unit scale works well.)

    This way an army stack of 3000 soldiers could be scaled up to 12,000, which was still considered a large battle in that era -- especially in colonial warfare. Battles involving multiple army stacks would reflect major battles, which were rare.

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    Alkarin's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: A basic explanation of unit sizes of the day. Battalion etc

    i think a regular full stacked armys' numbers should be upd to 5000 instead of 3000 so your regular battles are more like those that time with 10k units on the field
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    Soryn Arkayn's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: A basic explanation of unit sizes of the day. Battalion etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Alkarin View Post
    i think a regular full stacked armys' numbers should be upd to 5000 instead of 3000 so your regular battles are more like those that time with 10k units on the field
    Since the number of units in an army stacked is limited to 20, the determining factor in army size is the number of soldiers in each unit. From the screenshots I've reviewed the average number of soldiers per unit is 160, which limits the size of armies to 3200 soldiers.

    To achieve 5000-soldier armies the soldiers per unit would have to be increased to 250, which is out of proportion to any military organizational structure; 250 is too large for a company and too small for a battalion. Besides, simply increasing the number of soldiers per unit only increases the scale; in battle if you're fighting against another infantry unit they'll have just as many soldiers as your unit, so there's no advantage.

    I'd prefer that CA keep the units company-sized (150-160 soldiers) but increase the number of units per army stack from 20 to at least 30. Or simply allow the player to manually control more than one army stack in battle, in which case the unit and army sizes could remain the same.

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    Alkarin's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: A basic explanation of unit sizes of the day. Battalion etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Soryn Arkayn View Post
    Since the number of units in an army stacked is limited to 20, the determining factor in army size is the number of soldiers in each unit. From the screenshots I've reviewed the average number of soldiers per unit is 160, which limits the size of armies to 3200 soldiers.

    To achieve 5000-soldier armies the soldiers per unit would have to be increased to 250, which is out of proportion to any military organizational structure; 250 is too large for a company and too small for a battalion. Besides, simply increasing the number of soldiers per unit only increases the scale; in battle if you're fighting against another infantry unit they'll have just as many soldiers as your unit, so there's no advantage.

    I'd prefer that CA keep the units company-sized (150-160 soldiers) but increase the number of units per army stack from 20 to at least 30. Or simply allow the player to manually control more than one army stack in battle, in which case the unit and army sizes could remain the same.
    i agree on this for i would much rather have 30 units instead of having massive unrealistic clumps of soldiers
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  20. #20

    Default Re: A basic explanation of unit sizes of the day. Battalion etc

    Ehh, I think 100 (or 200 if you boost the size) soldiers isn't a bad representation of a battalion at a 1:6 scale (or 1:3 scale for 200 soldiers).

    I don't know why people are talking about companies as an operational unit. The fact of the matter is that companies didn't operate independently in most all battlefield situations.

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