Real Recruitment1.3/Real Combat1.8/CBUR/BFTB/BGR IV Compilation - 2009 Version - April 8 with update April 23

[Point Blank]

The plan is also for bigger terrain penalties, there is a calculation worked out for it but will take time to implement, still haven't finished stat_heat values.

The larger unit size thing is a good way to go IMHO. As LC says, maybe for ME factions, Locals can be boosted in size as well. I did that for Mongols and it works well, I would also suggest it for Cumans and possibly Kwarezm. But I didn't increase Late Pro sizes for Mongols as I did for western factions, but could do that as well. Probably good to look at it on a unit by unit basis.

Unit costs should probably be increased proportionally with unit size, with the exception of mongols. I left their costs unchanged, they need help. Perhaps ME faction costs for locals should not be changed also, though that perhaps introduces more balance issues.

Any input welcome.

Lord_Calidor: New knights look good, but isn't the trend towards smaller shields as armor became heavier?

[Lord_Calidor]

Yeah, small knightly pavise shields were much smaller and lighter than their large spearmen or crossbowmen versions. They were held in left hand, and were particularly popular in 15th century, used in combination with Gothic plates.

Also, this includes smaller rectangular shields with a cutout for the lance in one corner, and sometimes with center part horizontally indented. I dont know how to call them, so I just wrote pavise.

Edit: I meant these ones

[Lurker from Beyond]

Lord_Calidor

Good stuff, I think those shields would be wonderfull addiction to MTW2.

[Point Blank]

OK Gotcha Do you think it would be worth having an animation set for very late swordsmen units armed with a sword type optimised for dealing with similarly-armored opponent? ie so that thrusting moves are heavily favoured over swinging moves. A new unit 'late foot maa' might be appropriate. The sword could be AP with a very low attack but quite good attack delay, even a base 1AP attack, 30 attack delay, 5 defense, ie such a weapon would be of minimal use versus unarmored opponents or in the hands of anything much less than an elite weilder, eg:

Thrusting sword 1AP, 5 defense, 30 attack delay (or 45)
mace,warhammer 2AP, 4 defense, 60 attack delay (warhammer +1 charge for top spike)
Axe 3AP, 3 defense, 60 attack delay
arming sword 4, 5, 30
longsword / heavy sword 5, 5, 45

Using it 1-Handed would be +1 attack and -15 attack delay also. Might look quite good with the right animations, just remove most swings etc.

[Lord_Calidor]

That might be a great idea for rapiers, tucks and similar thrusting swords. Remember when I asked you about most propriate thrusting animation, back in the hmmm... May? Back then, we were clueless abt animations. Well, I'm still clueless, but you moved along quite a way.

This could be secondary weapon animation for arquebusiers, musketeers, reiters, demi lancers etc, even pikemen if JaM gets pike <-> sword switching right.

Unit using them as primary weapon should be only rennaissance-era, and even then in a combination with pistols and buckler, or some type of parrying weapon like fork, dagger etc.

Edit: is it possible to make a foot unit which would fire it's pistols from close range, then charge in with a rapier? Sorta like legionarries with pillum, from RTW.

[JaM]

yeah, arquebusiers and musketeers should have AP swords - they often fought with rapiers and daggers in close combat - check movie Alatriste - musketeers with daggers ducked under pikes and then just stubbed enemy pikemen into unprotected areas - they were fast due to only light armor if any.


and btw, regarding pikemen - if they are close together with side let say 0.4-0.6,they use pikes littlebit longer because enemy soldiers have more troubles to get through pikes to sword range. when that happens, pikemen will abadon pike and use sword instead,which is realistic.

[KillFascists420]

I installed, on a fresh copy of MIIK SS> SS 6.1+Remove Supply & Command+Perm Arrows> SSTC 1.0> SSTC 1.2+More Captains+Remove Spread Horse Fights> SSTC Fix+RAJ> Remove Horse Anim Patch> RR 1.2 RC 1.7 Beta from this thread, in that exact order and the game CTD whenever i try to play quick battle, start any late era campaign or start any battle in any early era campaign, making the game unplayable.

This is what my log says

20:40:07.809 [system.rpt] [always] CPU: SSE2
20:40:07.811 [system.rpt] [always] ==== system log start, build date: Feb 25 2008 version development ===
20:40:07.815 [system.io] [always] mounted pack packs/data_0.pack
20:40:07.816 [system.io] [always] mounted pack packs/data_1.pack
20:40:07.818 [system.io] [always] mounted pack packs/data_2.pack
20:40:07.819 [system.io] [always] mounted pack packs/data_3.pack
20:40:07.820 [system.io] [always] mounted pack packs/data_4.pack
20:40:07.820 [system.io] [always] mounted pack packs/localized.pack
20:40:21.755 [script.err] [error] Script Error in mods/Stainless_Steel_6/data/export_descr_unit.txt, at line 4475, column 43
missile range of 179 is impossible with projectile mass_bodkin_arrow (max range 179)
20:40:21.791 [script.err] [error] Script Error in mods/Stainless_Steel_6/data/export_descr_unit.txt, at line 14624, column 36
missile range of 139 is impossible with projectile mass_arrow (max range 139)
20:40:25.529 [script.err] [error] Script Error in mods/Stainless_Steel_6/data/descr_walls.txt, at line 111, column 38
missile range of 139 is impossible with projectile arrow (max range 139)
20:40:25.529 [script.err] [error] Script Error in mods/Stainless_Steel_6/data/descr_walls.txt, at line 161, column 38
missile range of 139 is impossible with projectile arrow (max range 139)
20:40:25.529 [script.err] [error] Script Error in mods/Stainless_Steel_6/data/descr_walls.txt, at line 209, column 34
missile range of 139 is impossible with projectile arrow (max range 139)
20:40:25.530 [script.err] [error] Script Error in mods/Stainless_Steel_6/data/descr_walls.txt, at line 311, column 38
missile range of 139 is impossible with projectile arrow (max range 139)
20:40:25.530 [script.err] [error] Script Error in mods/Stainless_Steel_6/data/descr_walls.txt, at line 428, column 38
missile range of 139 is impossible with projectile arrow (max range 139)
20:42:42.627 [system.rpt] [error] Medieval 2: Total War encountered an unspecified error and will now exit.

[nightwar]

well the unit's aresicily feudal knights are riderless!
merc monster ribault no men just see shadow's.
plus 3-4 other merc's have no skins at all.
plus all banner's that are held by officer's look flat and bizare dont wave in wind.
plus allot of trait's and ancillaries error's and a few range error's.

[KillFascists420]

I also experienced a strange thing where the flags are flat, not moving at all and appear to be folded over, I was perplexed when I seen it, very strange indeed my friend, very strange indeed:hmmm:

[spanish_emperor]

I get the same problem that KillFascists420 gets when i try to start a Late era campagin with 1440 files placed in Late era campaign file, here is my log:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

02:42:27.225 [system.rpt] [always] CPU: SSE2
02:42:27.247 [system.rpt] [always] ==== system log start, build date: Aug 3 2007 version bld-medieval2-kingdoms-104 (45562) ===
02:42:27.262 [system.io] [always] mounted pack packs/data_0.pack
02:42:27.264 [system.io] [always] mounted pack packs/data_1.pack
02:42:27.269 [system.io] [always] mounted pack packs/data_2.pack
02:42:27.273 [system.io] [always] mounted pack packs/data_3.pack
02:42:27.276 [system.io] [always] mounted pack packs/data_4.pack
02:42:27.296 [system.io] [always] mounted pack packs/localized.pack
02:42:45.513 [script.err] [error] Script Error in mods/Stainless_Steel_6/data/export_descr_unit.txt, at line 4475, column 43
missile range of 179 is impossible with projectile mass_bodkin_arrow (max range 179)
02:42:45.665 [script.err] [error] Script Error in mods/Stainless_Steel_6/data/export_descr_unit.txt, at line 14624, column 36
missile range of 139 is impossible with projectile mass_arrow (max range 139)
02:42:48.176 [script.err] [error] Script Error in mods/Stainless_Steel_6/data/descr_walls.txt, at line 111, column 38
missile range of 139 is impossible with projectile arrow (max range 139)
02:42:48.177 [script.err] [error] Script Error in mods/Stainless_Steel_6/data/descr_walls.txt, at line 161, column 38
missile range of 139 is impossible with projectile arrow (max range 139)
02:42:48.177 [script.err] [error] Script Error in mods/Stainless_Steel_6/data/descr_walls.txt, at line 209, column 34
missile range of 139 is impossible with projectile arrow (max range 139)
02:42:48.178 [script.err] [error] Script Error in mods/Stainless_Steel_6/data/descr_walls.txt, at line 311, column 38
missile range of 139 is impossible with projectile arrow (max range 139)
02:42:48.178 [script.err] [error] Script Error in mods/Stainless_Steel_6/data/descr_walls.txt, at line 428, column 38
missile range of 139 is impossible with projectile arrow (max range 139)
02:44:05.665 [system.rpt] [error] Medieval 2: Total War encountered an unspecified error and will now exit.

EDIT: Here is what i did:
1. installed a new SS6.0
2. installed patch SS6.1, ticking RR
3. installed SSTC 1.0 (unticked RAJ)
4. Installed SSTC patch 1.2 (unticked RAJ but checked horse spread)
5. extracted RR and SSTC for SS6.1
6. installed SSTC hotfix with RAJ
7. extracted RR1.2 RC1,7 Beta into data file. Ran the installation in that same data folder.
(i am a little confused over your installation process but followed it to the letter)

[KillFascists420]

EDIT My process goes as follows:

-SS 6.0
-SS 6.1 (unticked RR and BGR)
-SSTC 1.0 (unticked RAJ)
-SSTC 1.2 (unticked RAJ)
-SSTC Fix (ticked RAJ)
-SSTC Horse Animation Removal
-Extracted RR 1.2 RC 1.7 Beta data folder to SS data folder
-Ran the file as indicated in the Readme
-Ran the game

Quick Battle didn't work (CTD), none of the Late Eras worked (CTD), Early Era worked but CTD when I tried to enter a battle (tried with numerous factions to cross check).

All of the resulting CTD's ended with the same log:

20:40:07.809 [system.rpt] [always] CPU: SSE2
20:40:07.811 [system.rpt] [always] ==== system log start, build date: Feb 25 2008 version development ===
20:40:07.815 [system.io] [always] mounted pack packs/data_0.pack
20:40:07.816 [system.io] [always] mounted pack packs/data_1.pack
20:40:07.818 [system.io] [always] mounted pack packs/data_2.pack
20:40:07.819 [system.io] [always] mounted pack packs/data_3.pack
20:40:07.820 [system.io] [always] mounted pack packs/data_4.pack
20:40:07.820 [system.io] [always] mounted pack packs/localized.pack
20:40:21.755 [script.err] [error] Script Error in mods/Stainless_Steel_6/data/export_descr_unit.txt, at line 4475, column 43
missile range of 179 is impossible with projectile mass_bodkin_arrow (max range 179)
20:40:21.791 [script.err] [error] Script Error in mods/Stainless_Steel_6/data/export_descr_unit.txt, at line 14624, column 36
missile range of 139 is impossible with projectile mass_arrow (max range 139)
20:40:25.529 [script.err] [error] Script Error in mods/Stainless_Steel_6/data/descr_walls.txt, at line 111, column 38
missile range of 139 is impossible with projectile arrow (max range 139)
20:40:25.529 [script.err] [error] Script Error in mods/Stainless_Steel_6/data/descr_walls.txt, at line 161, column 38
missile range of 139 is impossible with projectile arrow (max range 139)
20:40:25.529 [script.err] [error] Script Error in mods/Stainless_Steel_6/data/descr_walls.txt, at line 209, column 34
missile range of 139 is impossible with projectile arrow (max range 139)
20:40:25.530 [script.err] [error] Script Error in mods/Stainless_Steel_6/data/descr_walls.txt, at line 311, column 38
missile range of 139 is impossible with projectile arrow (max range 139)
20:40:25.530 [script.err] [error] Script Error in mods/Stainless_Steel_6/data/descr_walls.txt, at line 428, column 38
missile range of 139 is impossible with projectile arrow (max range 139)
20:42:42.627 [system.rpt] [error] Medieval 2: Total War encountered an unspecified error and will now exit.

[Point Blank]

The range errors are not an issue, ignore them. They are 1m short of the range listed in the EDU. Traits and ancilliaries are not altered by RR/RC, unless the 1400 campaign alters them, JaM can you take a look please?

Will check into the non-waving flags, riderless Sicily horses etc. Hmm, mercs should all be OK.

Banzai did a rapier amimation class and a close-range foot pistol one too I think. I was thinking of an AP sword as more for men-at-arms/knights etc using a hand-and-a-half sword or heavier thrusting weapon such as an estoc or tuck as LC said, for units that were specifically trained to fight other heavy units in armor, rather than a lighter thrusting weapon like a rapier.

[aduellist]

Just going to throw my two cents' worth in.

Rapier was very uncommon on the battlefield. It was primarily a duellists' weapon used in civilian single combats. Quite unwieldy in a battle situation, being long and slender without good balance or the strength to handle much abuse.

Cut-and-thrust swords retained a quite strong cutting ability (thus "cut-and-thrust"). They were designed to cut against unarmored opponents with the edge and thrust into gaps in armor with the strong point. I don't see a real justification for making them less than effective against unarmored opponents (unless necessary for game balance, of course). Not sure about them being given AP, since they weren't used for, or capable of, piercing armor. That's what maces, hammers and picks were for.

[Point Blank]

I agree with you about the rapier. But for the AP version I was thinking more about the estoc or tuck, which were often triangular etc in cross-section and had no cutting edge at all.

Regarding the CTD's please ensure that the world\maps\campaign\custom\Late_Era_Campaign\map.rwm and world\maps\base\map.rwm files have been deleted by the RUNME_IN_SS6_DATA_DIRECTORY file defore playing the game, they should have been. Then the game will automatically generate replacements. Are you sure you guys overwrote when you copied the files in? sounds like you didn't copy the new animation files in or something.

[KillFascists420]

I went into the RR 1.2 RC 1.7 Beta data folder crtl-a selected all of the files, went into the SS data folder and ctrl v pasted the files, the game worked this time but still getting the flag glitch.

"I also experienced a strange thing where the flags are flat, not moving at all and appear to be folded over, I was perplexed when I seen it, very strange indeed my friend, very strange indeed"

In my opinion this ridiculous glitch makes the game unplayable.

[JaM]

nothing was done to ancilaries from my side. In those files i posted before I eliminated some of them because they were causing CTDs in my game, so if anybody is experiencing them, i suggest to try them.

[Lord_Calidor]

Actually, sword AP unit could be interesting idea. They would use typical reinforced-blade hand-and-a-half cut & thrust sword like Oakeshotts XVa-XVIIIa.

Do you think they would use shields and sword as 1H (in that case AP should be dropped, but attack increased to somewhere between longsword & 2H sword) or without shield, using them as they were historically? In that case, 1 AP sounds way too low, as they still retained all the lethality of a longsword plus ability to find weak spots in plate armour and pierce any weaker type. Combined with 2H usage (or 1H with other hand free), should be around 3AP, 5 def, 60 delay. This would probably need new hand-and-a-half animation, as 2H might be too slow and rapier too fast.

While we're at it, what you think about adding +1 def to all melee units without a shield, to better represent ability to avoid melee attacks by their agility or weapon control?

[Santiago de Pola]

Could it be possible to release the RR/RC separate of the Late Era Campaign, and then later just release a Late Era Campaign as a standalone?

I just see so many problems..I guess that way it would be easier to isolate some of them! :hmmm:

[JaM]

campaign should work normally with Bygs files, if you dont have byg's files in, it wont work.

btw, late 1400 campaign was done using older RR/RC. Also, it is just heavilly modified original SS6.1 campaign files so if it cause CTDs, then even early era would cause them when you will have such developped provinces. As I mentioned before, i suggest to use those ancilaries i posted before in older thread, they are fixing CTDs.

If naybody have a problem with that campaign, please post your log and description what happened just before crash. It would help with bugfixing.

[SwampRAt]

Just to throw something else into the discussion - whilst having pikes and swords causes all sorts of issues when men abandon the pikes too early - how about having some of the 2-handed sword units having a smaller (possibly AP) backup weapon for close combat?
Someone else was talking about doing that in a different thread for a scotland/gael mod so claymores would be the unit's main sword and then a dirk for when there wasn't as much room.

If you think of the crush you get when a stream of units try to pour through a settlement's gates and the defenders try to stop them - the chances of being able to use a big sword effectively would be severly reduced.