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Thread: -- Preview of Dwarves --

  1. #121
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    Default Re: --Unit Preview--Dwarves--

    Quote Originally Posted by HighLord z0b View Post
    I don't think Hammers are that unrealistic if they're going to be using Pick Axes. They're both weapons that miners would use, and the historical war hammer looked a lot like a cross between a pick axe and a hammer.

    Instead of creating new unit though, I would make them an alternate weapon for the miners, so that some would have pick axes and some would have mining hammers.
    Hmm I thinking though that the hammers would be better to replace one of the already included units with axes, either the one handed or two handed ones. Because there's 6 units that are so very similar, and thats the only reason why I stopped playing the Darthmod back in RTW, because it was too hard to remember which of the 8 sword fighting units for the Gauls were good and which ones were bad etc, then multiply that by 10 different factions, and the game felt repetitive and more like a chor than fun.

  2. #122
    Mithrandir's Avatar Flame of Anor
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    Default Re: --Unit Preview--Dwarves--

    Quote Originally Posted by FarKenal View Post
    Hmm I thinking though that the hammers would be better to replace one of the already included units with axes, either the one handed or two handed ones. Because there's 6 units that are so very similar, and thats the only reason why I stopped playing the Darthmod back in RTW, because it was too hard to remember which of the 8 sword fighting units for the Gauls were good and which ones were bad etc, then multiply that by 10 different factions, and the game felt repetitive and more like a chor than fun.
    If I got to choose, I'd change the weapons of two units from axes to swords and mattocks.


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  3. #123

    Default Re: --Unit Preview--Dwarves--

    as amazing as ever. keep up the fantastic work. + rep
    - beta tester for Paeninsula Italica


  4. #124

    Default Re: --Unit Preview--Dwarves--

    DjAci brings up an interesting case... Dwarves with short-range yet powerful bows sounds like it would add some extra variation for the Dwarves, perhaps giving a decent total of three long-range unit types. However, while I like the idea, I myself wouldn't know the manner in which it could be implemented... I mean, I'd imagine the Dwarves' crossbow unit(s) being both long-range and powerful. :hmmm:

    Special heavy long range ballista... Now that would be awesome, especially if the model is changed somewhat. But if it can't be thrown in alongside the ballista then I recommend replacing the ballista idea with a catapult one; a 'special heavy long range catapult', if you will, would naturally be more powerful than the ballista anyway, and would be quite the threat for settlements. Plus, I don't know, but it just seems like the Dwarves would be much more at home launching boulders than bolts.

    ...Of course, having both an uber-ballista and an uber-catapult, well...

    Regarding this business about hammers and picks and whatnot, I for one see where people are coming from when they say it would go against Tolkein's works. On the other hand, I don't see the inclusion of them as being rebellious to Tolkein himself. This is a game, after all, and therefore the mod isn't meant to be played by just Tolkein obessors and lore buffs, but rather, well, gamers. Saying that, I'm not also saying that if you're a Tolkein fan you shouldn't play this game (I myself am in love with The Lord of the Rings) but that at the least you should be a Middle-earth geek and a gamer all in one.

    But what if in the books Tolkein only mentioned the Dwarves wielding nothing but one-handed axes, two-handed axes and bows, each being exact in style and shape to the other (that is to say, all one-handed axes being the same etc.)? Pretend for a moment that that is the case, but keep in mind that despite this the Dwarves are nonetheless still a major part of the books, indeed major enough to be featured as a playable faction in this mod. Now imagine how friggin' boring it would be to play them.

    So I personally think hammers and/or picks, be it a giant mallet-style hammer or a war hammer, would be aesthetically pleasing if implemented. However, I'll go ahead and help critics out by saying that I'm kind of contradicting myself here, because the only practicality I can imagine hammers and picks (of whatever sort) having for the gameplay is that they'd be great against armor. Wait... Oh, axes already have that job!

    Okay, so what about making a few more units if replacing a few of the current ones' axes with hammers/picks isn't convenient? On another note, what about instead simply replacing some of what's there with bearded axes and/or bardiches?
    Last edited by Sir Bobbert; October 03, 2008 at 04:51 PM.
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  5. #125
    Mithrandir's Avatar Flame of Anor
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    Default Re: --Unit Preview--Dwarves--

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Bobbert View Post
    But what if in the books Tolkein only mentioned the Dwarves wielding nothing but one-handed axes, two-handed axes and bows, each being exact in style and shape to the other (that is to say, all one-handed axes being the same etc.)? Pretend for a moment that that is the case, but keep in mind that despite this the Dwarves are nonetheless still a major part of the books, indeed major enough to be featured as a playable faction in this mod. Now imagine how friggin' boring it would be to play them.
    Fortunately, that's not the case. Dwarves use enough different types of weapons as it is (more than most vanilla factions). We don't need more weapon types, what we want is to replace some axes with swords or mattocks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Bobbert View Post
    The only practicality I can imagine hammers and picks (of whatever sort) having for the gameplay is that they'd be great against armor. Wait... Oh, axes already have that job!
    Exactly, they don't add much to the gameplay, and it's just not worth the time.


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  6. #126

    Default Re: --Unit Preview--Dwarves--

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  7. #127
    DjAci's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: --Unit Preview--Dwarves--

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Bobbert View Post
    DjAci brings up an interesting case... Dwarves with short-range yet powerful bows sounds like it would add some extra variation for the Dwarves, perhaps giving a decent total of three long-range unit types. However, while I like the idea, I myself wouldn't know the manner in which it could be implemented... I mean, I'd imagine the Dwarves' crossbow unit(s) being both long-range and powerful. :hmmm:

    Special heavy long range ballista... Now that would be awesome, especially if the model is changed somewhat. But if it can't be thrown in alongside the ballista then I recommend replacing the ballista idea with a catapult one; a 'special heavy long range catapult', if you will, would naturally be more powerful than the ballista anyway, and would be quite the threat for settlements. Plus, I don't know, but it just seems like the Dwarves would be much more at home launching boulders than bolts.
    Thx for the observation. Considering dwarven archers they could be easily implemented. I imagine them as a unit of powerful archers equipped with powerful, but short ranged metal bows. These bows would have standard range and would pierce armor but (due to superior rate of fire of a bow) very high damage and would pierce armor. Their use would be to support the dwarven infantry line with powerful missile support. Crossbows would on the other hand be less capable of dealing direct damage, but would have "long range missiles". This would make the better suited to deal with other missile units (like horse archers). I short bows would do lots of damage for short range, while xbows would give them long range missiles for missile superiority.

    As for siege weapons. My intended plan would be to redesign a ballista unit by increasing it's range and accuracy as well as firing rate to create a weapon that could do real damage (greater the siege weapons of M2TW) to the enemy. In effect of damage they should resemble Roman caridge ballistae from RTW BI. It should be a unit killer (with little or no attack vs buildings) and therefore find the ballista more convenient. Catapult could work too though if it would be possible to allow it to fire several stones at once showering the enemy with rocks. Creating such a capable siege anti-troop unit would nullify the need for Dale cavalry giving the dwarves a more unique gameplay and a more coherent racial identity.
    I am slightly obsessed with longbows

  8. #128

    Default Re: --Unit Preview--Dwarves--

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Bobbert View Post
    DjAci brings up an interesting case... Dwarves with short-range yet powerful bows sounds like it would add some extra variation for the Dwarves, perhaps giving a decent total of three long-range unit types.
    Quote Originally Posted by DjAci View Post
    Considering dwarven archers they could be easily implemented. I imagine them as a unit of powerful archers equipped with powerful, but short ranged metal bows. These bows would have standard range and would pierce armor but (due to superior rate of fire of a bow) very high damage and would pierce armor. Their use would be to support the dwarven infantry line with powerful missile support. Crossbows would on the other hand be less capable of dealing direct damage, but would have "long range missiles".
    I find myself confused about why exactly the inclusion of a new ranged unit is being advocated. Nowhere do I recall seeing any references that suggest that the dwarves of Middle-earth relied so heavily upon ranged weapons such as to necessitate the introduction of bowmen in addition to the axemen and crossbowmen that have been presented thus far.

    Source considerations aside, I am not convinced that the addition of bowmen would significantly enhance gameplay, but even assuming that such an addition would in fact serve to make the dwarven unit offerings more well-rounded, I still do not believe that introducing dwarven bowmen would be a good idea. After all, much of the challenge of M:TW comes from utilizing the varied strengths of each of the many factions in order to counter whatever weaknesses that may exist.

    As it currently stands, the dwarves are a faction that relies heavily upon heavy infantry which, due to their preference for axes, are particularly effective against armor. Their infantry superiority, however, is offset by a complete absence of cavalry support and limited ranged capabilities (at least when siege weaponry are excluded from the equation). That is not to say that they have absolutely no options for ranged combat; at short ranges, they have axethrowers who, no doubt, can do tremendous amounts of damage but have a very limited number of projectiles. At longer ranges, they have crossbowmen who can match the range of archers from other factions, but with a slower rate of fire. Like most of the dwarven units, they both are probably effective against armor.

    Bottom line: if the strongest arguments for the inclusion of a proposed unit run along the lines of "add them because they would be cool" or "add them because they would be useful" rather than "add them because Tolkien mentioned them" and/or "add them because their omission would break gameplay" then the proposed unit probably should not be included.

  9. #129
    DjAci's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: --Unit Preview--Dwarves--

    Quote Originally Posted by shinsengumi View Post
    Bottom line: if the strongest arguments for the inclusion of a proposed unit run along the lines of "add them because they would be cool" or "add them because they would be useful" rather than "add them because Tolkien mentioned them" and/or "add them because their omission would break gameplay" then the proposed unit probably should not be included.
    My argument for the inclusion of dwarven archers has very little with their coolness. I proposed to add them as they would enhance gameplay and ARE mentioned directly by Tolkien. (Tolkien mentions dwarves using bows to some extent) Discussion in other threads of the forum suggested that metallic bows could very much fit the dwarves. It is the xbows that were never directly mentioned, but where thought that would fit very well with the faction.

    If the dwarves are pictured without any cavalry (which currently isn't the case as they will probably get Dale cavalry) they need, in addition to their superior infantry a fairly capable range force. They need it as they would completly lack an entire genus of military units (cavalry). Their infantry needs to be their primary force, but they do need fair ranged units to compensate for their complete lack of cavalry. Proposed superior siege unit with axethrowers simply aren't reliable enough for a broad range of tactical situations. If they are to function without cavalry, their missile capabilities should be avarage when compared to other factions, not inferior. They would otherwise become to inflexible focusing too narrowly only on their infantry.

    If the team decides to stay with the idea of one cavalry unit for dwarves the archers are becoming more redundant. It's on the team to decide.
    I am slightly obsessed with longbows

  10. #130
    The Big Red 1's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: --Unit Preview--Dwarves--

    1. This mod focuses on making all faction unique, and so far; the Dwarves are the most unique we have had. Focusing on Heavy Infantry and Siege Equip. Thus the addition of Bowmen would make them less unique.

    2. Metallic Bows are not possible in physics

    3. Tolkein mentioned Dwarves with bows but do to their small size and arm span it would be extremely hard to make one work effectively. Limiting their use among Dwarves.

    4. All imbalances will be fixed in Beta.

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  11. #131

    Default Re: --Unit Preview--Dwarves--

    Won't their be lots of animation problems, due to the small stature of the dwarves, it even looks kind of strange when they hold their pikes, as it goes through their bodies, will the animations be fixed up by KK?

  12. #132
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    Default Re: --Unit Preview--Dwarves--

    regarding hammers and pickax's, guys in the real medieval world these tools and many, many other objects that were made for a purpose other than killing were quickly converted(if modified at all) to makeshift weapons, many of them preformed so well that they were then further modified into professional weapons to kill, such as the English Billhook.


    Why would the world of middle earth be any different?


    Big red 1, i do seem to remember reading in the hobbit that some of the Dwarves used bow to shoot at Squirrels (pox on them for that) but these bows were given to them by men or elves and they could not shoot them well at all right?
    Last edited by Fenix_120; October 03, 2008 at 10:30 PM.

  13. #133
    Douchebag's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: --Unit Preview--Dwarves--

    absolutely gorgeous!!!!!! +rep

  14. #134
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    Default Re: --Unit Preview--Dwarves--

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenix_120 View Post
    regarding hammers and pickax's, guys in the real medieval world these tools and many, many other objects that were made for a purpose other than killing were quickly converted(if modified at all) to makeshift weapons, many of them preformed so well that they were then further modified into professional weapons to kill, such as the English Billhook.


    Why would the world of middle earth be any different?


    Big red 1, i do seem to remember reading in the hobbit that some of the Dwarves used bow to shoot at Squirrels (pox on them for that) but these bows were given to them by men or elves and they could not shoot them well at all right?
    I don't own the hobbit but I do know they do use bows in it. Just the effectiveness due to the size and preferred fighting style of the Dwarves causes Bows to be limited.
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  15. #135
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    Default Re: --Unit Preview--Dwarves--

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenix_120 View Post
    regarding hammers and pickax's, guys in the real medieval world these tools and many, many other objects that were made for a purpose other than killing were quickly converted(if modified at all) to makeshift weapons, many of them preformed so well that they were then further modified into professional weapons to kill, such as the English Billhook.
    No hammers. We don't need them, leave that to warhammer and warcraft...


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  16. #136
    Kiam's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: --Unit Preview--Dwarves--

    I agree with Mithrandir.

    We do not need them

  17. #137
    Radiso-FIN's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: --Unit Preview--Dwarves--

    Very nice units! And it is good to see there is a large variety of them as well

  18. #138
    DjAci's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: --Unit Preview--Dwarves--

    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Red 1 View Post
    1. This mod focuses on making all faction unique, and so far; the Dwarves are the most unique we have had. Focusing on Heavy Infantry and Siege Equip. Thus the addition of Bowmen would make them less unique.

    2. Metallic Bows are not possible in physics

    3. Tolkein mentioned Dwarves with bows but do to their small size and arm span it would be extremely hard to make one work effectively. Limiting their use among Dwarves.

    4. All imbalances will be fixed in Beta.

    Well if u feel as sure seeing them well balanced who am I to judge. I guess they do not need bowmen.

    I do, however, prefer dwarven bowmen to Dale archers who are mentioned in the preview. Also I would like to see the dwarves well balanced without a cavalry unit from Dale. I would like to ask the team how do they stand on these questions?
    I am slightly obsessed with longbows

  19. #139

    Default Re: --Unit Preview--Dwarves--

    Fortunately, that's not the case. Dwarves use enough different types of weapons as it is (more than most vanilla factions). We don't need more weapon types, what we want is to replace some axes with swords or mattocks.
    Yet I imagine mattocks themselves carrying just as much practicality (that is, being strong against armor) as the axes already present. If we'd therefore simply be making mattocks the stronger/weaker counterpart to axes in this case, then the same could be done with bearded axes, bardiches, hammers etc.

    I see a similar case with swords. If you replace, say, the Dwarven Warriors' axes with swords then they would be just as much of a sword-and-shield unit as the Iron Guard are. Now, if obviousness is indeed present, the Dwarven Warriors would still nevertheless be weaker compared to the Iron Guard.

    But that same stronger-than-or-weaker-than principle would apply by adding a weapon other than a sword or mattock. For instance, a great maul-wielding unit could be more powerful in their expertise of crushing armor than a particular axe-wielding unit is, with that unit sharing the same area of expertise.

    Back to bows, if crossbows weren't even mentioned in the books as being used by Dwarves then certain people are pretty much contradicting themselves when they go ahead and say hammers were never mentioned (I'm not saying they were) and thus are being omitted from the mod.

    Yes, crossbows are only there in the first place because ofdon't get me wrongtheir tactical benefits, but upon reading through some of these posts it actually seems like bows (regardless of their material) deserve to be put in, if not to replace crossbows themselves. Concerning size and armspan, I think that either way you'd be attacking realism in the sense that, realistically, crossbows weren't mentioned and, on the other hand, Dwarves would really be quite poor archers.

    Still, DjAci did suggest such bowmen as being powerful if having short range. While I don't think a Dwarven bowman unit would be able to utilize the fast rate of fire that bows allow (which would indeed be due to limited armspan and short height), I do think that, to be fair, the bows are what should be in the modnot crossbows.

    Ultimately, though, I'd welcome having both bows and crossbows. If only one is able to be featured then, admittedly, crossbows seem superior to the idea of bows themselves, in both range and power. I mean, in a historical sense, it was the crossbow and not the bow that caused for advancement in armor after all. Plus, given the natural strength of dwarves, perhaps they could fire crossbows more rapidly than crossbow units of other factions as it is.
    Last edited by Sir Bobbert; October 04, 2008 at 05:48 AM.
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  20. #140
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    Default Re: --Unit Preview--Dwarves--

    :hmmm: I don't think I can wait any longer

    Utterly amazing work!

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