Culture of submods

[zznɟ ǝɥʇ]

I was wondering what you modders thought of the submod culture that seems to have taken M2TW by storm. I wasn't around for the release of RTW, and most RTW mods, so I don't know if it's a new thing or just a continuation of old habits...

At any rate, I'm curious what you, the creators, think of it. Is there an issue with users creating their own submods and sharing them? Do you see it as changing the way you meant your mod to be played, or as helpful addons for the finicky TWC users? What caused the influx of every n00b with notepad releasing their own 'mods'? Is this detrimental to the community, good, or one of those issues that can't be seen in just black and white?

I know many people mod for personal use, but it seems that lately they release those mods. This was brought on by a thread in the EBII forum about possible submods for the mod. Sheesh.

Just curious . . . am hoping for well-reasoned responses but if you can't be bothered that's fine too. :

my keyboard batteries are dying, brb

[Miraj]

I think it's a big difference from RTW where pretty much all the mods had a very professional feel to it. People were truly interested in creating real and unique packages that changed more than a few text files or skin colorings.

I think the "submod culture" in M2TW is directly related to the age demographic of M2TW players. They seem a lot more younger than RTW players. This coupled with the fact that lots of the would-be modders of M2TW spent a lot of their energies in RTW and it left a very large quality modding void in M2TW.

I personally dislike the mini-modding culture and have been against it taking BC the more I learnt about it (ie via the SS forums). We don't get paid for modding, and when it comes down to it our only 'payment' is credit and appreciation of the work. I feel mini-modding dilutes that and I dislike the idea of my team-mates work being overwritten or one-upped so easily. I also think a lot of 'mini-modders' are often more interested in simply gaining credit for shabby work that's based on other peoples work anyways. Finally minomodding tends to be rife with theft and general disrespect towards other's creative properties.

That's my 2 c for now. Have more thoughts but am too tired to write them out more eloquently.

[Lord Anubis]

Most sub-mods are cheap little things I can do myself.

[Augustus Lucifer]

I was wondering what you modders thought of the submod culture that seems to have taken M2TW by storm. I wasn't around for the release of RTW, and most RTW mods, so I don't know if it's a new thing or just a continuation of old habits...

You weren't :hmmm:, oh right I guess you were more or less over with me on the RTR forums, I do kind of remember the transition after they died and you and your girlfriend sharing an account or something.

At any rate, I'm curious what you, the creators, think of it. Is there an issue with users creating their own submods and sharing them? Do you see it as changing the way you meant your mod to be played, or as helpful addons for the finicky TWC users? What caused the influx of every n00b with notepad releasing their own 'mods'? Is this detrimental to the community, good, or one of those issues that can't be seen in just black and white?

Obviously as a disclaimer, my opinions are as applied to the eventual release of All Under Heaven when specific, since my team doesn't have any current releases.

I don't have a particular issue with the creation of sub-mods by users if they're something which adds a new element to the game. If there's a sub-mod which wants to increase realism on an extremely realistic mod, to me that seems a little bit pretentious. Some of the selling points used by sub-mod creators are thus, and should not be so. You can have an "Alternative Realism" mod, but once it becomes a matter of the original not being good enough, the sub-mod would lose my support. The goal of a sub-mod should be to make personal taste additions, not to "make it better".

It doesn't seem to be changing the way mods are played either. RTR was a shining example of good Sub-Mods, with Imperator! eventually becoming a standalone mod, and RTRPE keeping users sated between RTR 6 and RTR 7, as well as a couple other decent sub-mods. Stainless Steel to me has a lot of interesting ideas, some of the cooler scripts I've seen start as SS sub-mods, but the plethora of sub-mods make it undesirable for me.

As for the cause, I can't say for sure, perhaps just the openness of some modders to the prospect of sub-mods ad infinitum, or perhaps users feel they know more what they want in a Medieval setting because there's oft times more documentation they can apply to their own brand of history. If the latter, then we will see billions of sub-mods for E:TW because more people will have some fleeting knowledge of their country's history and want a piece of the action. In my opinion a sub-mod for this is better than a mod though, I'd much rather see people make their little sub-mods than start their own mod with the advertisement "This mod is at least 1% different than other mod, I need coders, modellers, skinners, and researchers!!11!!11 HELP!11!!"

In that same vein, it isn't really detrimental to the community if it is done with mod consent, because if all the users who propose mods which are very similar would either join the mod which already works on it, or make a sub-mod with the minor changes, we wouldn't have so much work wasted on very closely related "Total Conversion" mods. Heck we have like what, 10+ prolific "realism" mods for the Medieval time period where we had two premier pro ones for Rome and then later a third in RS. Modders need to learn their idea isn't so much different.

I think it's a big difference from RTW where pretty much all the mods had a very professional feel to it. People were truly interested in creating real and unique packages that changed more than a few text files or skin colorings.

I'd venture to say there's a lot more dead mods than on R:TW as well, and a lot more mediocre ones. All of the real setting shifting mods for M2 besides BC aren't out yet and are in various stages of development. Meanwhile we have enough Medieval Realism mods that if a person can't find one to suit their tastes they'd have to be clinically retarded.

I think the "submod culture" in M2TW is directly related to the age demographic of M2TW players. They seem a lot more younger than RTW players. This coupled with the fact that lots of the would-be modders of M2TW spent a lot of their energies in RTW and it left a very large quality modding void in M2TW.

I don't know about the age demographic, that might be a way of explaining the whole "shiny graphics" appeal, but there are other bonuses over Rome. If it was about gameplay over graphics people would still be modding Medieval which has the best AI and systems, so that can't really be the case fully. Part of the problem is by the time modders know enough about an engine and the modding knowledge has disseminated that the true total conversion mods like fantasy mods et al can be made, it's already short production time until the next CA Release. This happened with Rome with FA and other mods which developed long into M2 release, and it will happen again with some of the larger M2 mods into Empire. This process can no doubt be curtailed some if CA gets their act together and actually delivers on the "making modding easier" pledge, especially in the realm of giving us all the converters soon after release.

I personally dislike the mini-modding culture and have been against it taking BC the more I learnt about it (ie via the SS forums). We don't get paid for modding, and when it comes down to it our only 'payment' is credit and appreciation of the work. I feel mini-modding dilutes that and I dislike the idea of my team-mates work being overwritten or one-upped so easily. I also think a lot of 'mini-modders' are often more interested in simply gaining credit for shabby work that's based on other peoples work anyways. Finally minomodding tends to be rife with theft and general disrespect towards other's creative properties.

That's my 2 c for now. Have more thoughts but am too tired to write them out more eloquently.

I tend to agree on pretty much all of those counts.

Most sub-mods are cheap little things I can do myself.

Indeed, and this is somewhat of a travesty in and of itself.

That being said, the way I intend to approach it for All Under Heaven is a more official involvement ordeal. Some sub-mods can achieve work that can make the game different to play, if not better, and the work may be passed up just for the global version. I don't expect many modders will still be interested in M2 by the time our mod is released, but my policy will be twofold.

1) Official Sub-Mods; I already have a few official sub-mods that I plan to work on as part of the main mod but not contain the main download since it adds a sort of specialized feel to the game. These are team-produced optional installs essentially. Some examples:

Dhammapada - A version of the export_buildings and export_units will be made with excerpts from the buddhist scripture the Dhammapada. Not all users may like their building info being pushed down, but some, including myself, may enjoy the cultural inclusion.

Historic Events - Historic Events that involve conquests, rebellions, and such that can't impact the player won't be included in the main game because it conflicts with the actions the player and other nations take. However a version will be offered which includes historic conquests and conflicting events for players who like to see what actually was going on at the time, learn something, and possibly compare their conquests to the actual ones.

Ghurids Playable - A very small mod will be making the ghurids playable when in the main game they are a horde faction. This will cater to the fact that probably 50% of users will try and do this themselves, and save them the time without much trouble.

The above optional addition mods are examples of things which don't necessarily appeal to everyone or comply with the vision for the mod, but are considered a useful addition and something easy to provide.

2) Sponsored Sub-Mods; My process will be one of asking users who intend to publish sub-mods what they intend to do with the game. Or rather, having them inform me. If it is something that can be just added to the main mod in an update, it will obviously not be approved. Same applies to arbitrary balancing changes and similar. If they intend to do something intriguing then the sub-mod would be sponsored and possibly included in future patch releases.

That's my personal approach and opinions on the sub-mod culture.

Cheers,
Augustus