Gameplay mechanics changes

[Quinn Inuit]

I have two ideas (thus far) for changes to the mechanics of the game, and I would like to solicit your thoughts.

First, remove all Wonders. I've been unable to figure out how to disable them (how does vanilla BI do it?!), and I don't want to use the hidden resources required for Makanyane's workaround (create a hidden resource in each wonder province with global effects that cancel out the wonder bonus). They're excellent for the atmosphere of the game, but I dislike the quasi-magical aspect they introduce.

Second, apply a -1 pop growth modifier per level to all sewer buildings. Growth is ridiculous in 4tpy, even with the grain export problem fixed. This way, sewers will only have one effect on population (sewage reduction) and not two (the "health building" boost).

[Jamey]

First, remove all Wonders. I've been unable to figure out how to disable them (how does vanilla BI do it?!), and I don't want to use the hidden resources required for Makanyane's workaround (create a hidden resource in each wonder province with global effects that cancel out the wonder bonus). They're excellent for the atmosphere of the game, but I dislike the quasi-magical aspect they introduce.

I like this idea. Like you, I'd much rather disable their effects rather than remove them from the map. They add nicely to the ambiance.

Second, apply a -1 pop growth modifier per level to all sewer buildings. Growth is ridiculous in 4tpy, even with the grain export problem fixed. This way, sewers will only have one effect on population (sewage reduction) and not two (the "health building" boost).

If we go this route, we'll definitely need to look at the growth rate in some of the slow growth provinces. Places with a 0.5% or 1% base farming rate will be really hard to get anywhere with this change.

Thinking about this, if I were to remove a growth bonus, I'd remove it from the markets and leave it on farms and sanitation.

[Delvecchio1975]

Second, apply a -1 pop growth modifier per level to all sewer buildings. Growth is ridiculous in 4tpy, even with the grain export problem fixed. This way, sewers will only have one effect on population (sewage reduction) and not two (the "health building" boost).

I don't understand - with all factions i played in ExRM (not the celtiberians, gauls or sarmations, but all the rest) I NEVER had a population problem, on the contrary, with most cities I need to change the taxes to low to get to the next level when i run out of buildings to construct ... ?

[pannonian]

Second, apply a -1 pop growth modifier per level to all sewer buildings. Growth is ridiculous in 4tpy, even with the grain export problem fixed. This way, sewers will only have one effect on population (sewage reduction) and not two (the "health building" boost).

Growth seems ok to me. There's a bug, intrinsic I think to RTW, that means growth may be incorrectly displayed around 2 points higher than it actually is. But that sorts itself out at the end of turn, or on reload.

I'm still keen on the idea of turning border cities over to the Germanics and the Sarmatians, to prompt their expansion and simulate periodic migrations. FRRE has a script that turns cities over to the player if he wins certain introductory battles, and I think TIC has a script that checks to see if a certain city has already been taken, so I'll need to have a look at those and combine them to produce a sample script or summat.

[Wien1938]

Excellent ideas. Go for it.

[AqD]

I have two ideas (thus far) for changes to the mechanics of the game, and I would like to solicit your thoughts.

First, remove all Wonders. I've been unable to figure out how to disable them (how does vanilla BI do it?!), and I don't want to use the hidden resources required for Makanyane's workaround (create a hidden resource in each wonder province with global effects that cancel out the wonder bonus). They're excellent for the atmosphere of the game, but I dislike the quasi-magical aspect they introduce.

But it feels gooooooood when you capture a wonder!

I'd be happier to build one myself though

Second, apply a -1 pop growth modifier per level to all sewer buildings. Growth is ridiculous in 4tpy, even with the grain export problem fixed. This way, sewers will only have one effect on population (sewage reduction) and not two (the "health building" boost).

I haven't checked your modifications (my ExRM version was several months old ), but my last experiment seems good:

farm base levels are reduced by half.
grains are removed.

epic_stone_wall: +1 growth (req. large city)
shipwright / dockyard: +1 growth (req. minor city / large city)
caravan / frankincense_rd / silk_rd : +1 growth (req. minor city / large city / huge city)

sewers: health +1 (large town)
baths: health +1, happiness +2 (minor city)
aqueduct: health +2, happiness +3 (large city)
city_plumbing: health +2, happiness +4 (huge city)

(I don't use negative growth bonus because they just don't work when there is no positive growth bonus to decrease)

All positive squalor effects are removed from traits and retinues; negative ones (increase growth) are reduced by 1 level.

All AI generals get +2 management bonus so their cities would grow whenever there is a general.

Most regions will grow to minor city or large city (with governors). AI cities grows slightly faster because they cheat.

In my last campaign as parthians, the first 2 huge cities appear in Seleucid and Ptolemaic in around 240-250BC (4tpy), and iberians get the first large city in about 230-240BC; poor and war-like gauls still had no large city of their own in 230BC, while I had 2 with over 20,000 people with my best governors, all good buildings, and low tax policy for 50 years.

On my thracian campaign, however, it's difficult in the first 10 years to get any positive growth in my initial regions due to lack of infrastructure and good governors.

The growth is low enough for players to keep attention (to get more men - not less ), but most AI factions such as Roman or Seleucid wouldn't need to care about it. I'm not just trying to reduce squalor, but also to make manpower shortage a real problem that players should not ignore (especially if you play with huge unit scale).

Hope this helps.
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Park Royal 3 Condos Pattaya

[Iskandar]

I agree. I'll be sorry to see the Wonders go, but right now they screw too much the game balance. If I am not near them, Rhodes and Corinth end up the cause of Black/Yellow/Blue/whoever-controls-them Death.

As for the populations - I vote with two hands. I play only on huge and having cities drained from manpower because of few military disasters is something I've long waited to see. Plus it would be more realistically that way - they never fought 6 times a year every year back in the days. The barbarians should stay the same way though, or even be boosted, to better simulate the invasions caused by overpopulation. There is nothing like 200 000 Cimbri and Teutones deciding to see what's in the south.

[Jamey]

Thinking about this more, there are two concerns I have with the growth reduction:

1. The AI is hitting negative growth already because it doesn't build sanitation. I've never seen the AI grow Roma to huge size, much less any other settlement. I've never seen an AI controlled Roman settlement grow a settlement up to a Large City.
2. Reducing growth penalties would really hurt barbarian factions trying to scrape their way up to 6k for Minor City status. We'd definitely need to look at the base farming rates and/or starting populations of the hinterlands if we decide to do this.

[pannonian]

Thinking about this more, there are two concerns I have with the growth reduction:

1. The AI is hitting negative growth already because it doesn't build sanitation. I've never seen the AI grow Roma to huge size, much less any other settlement. I've never seen an AI controlled Roman settlement grow a settlement up to a Large City.
2. Reducing growth penalties would really hurt barbarian factions trying to scrape their way up to 6k for Minor City status. We'd definitely need to look at the base farming rates and/or starting populations of the hinterlands if we decide to do this.

Alpha Centauri-style AI bonuses? Trait that all AI characters get, +2 command, +2 management, +2 growth. MNM has something similar with a hidden trait that adds 2 command.

[Quinn Inuit]

Hmmm, given the sanitation problems already raised, perhaps the hidden trait should be a sanitation positive rather than a growth positive.

Reading over the various responses, I think there are a couple of different strains of problem wrapped up in here:
1) The AI doesn't govern well
2) High farm areas have excessive growth (Tried playing Pontus lately? Geez.)
3) Barbarians grow too slowly

I think we can ameliorate the first issue with Pannonian's idea. The second issue may be partially resolvable by making no areas have base farming >5. Also, I still like the idea of giving sewer buildings a negative pop growth modifier on top of their negative squalor one. The third issue is more complicated, but could we help solve it by giving gov't buildings a -1 squalor for barb cultures?


Oh, and the Wonders appear to have no defenders. I think they'll have to go. Like I said, if I could figure out how Vanilla BI turns them off, I would, but right now the only way I can get their effects to go away is if I remove them.

[Jamey]

Oh, and the Wonders appear to have no defenders. I think they'll have to go. Like I said, if I could figure out how Vanilla BI turns them off, I would, but right now the only way I can get their effects to go away is if I remove them.

Did you post in the mod forum or at the Org looking for help on that? Or is this a generally unsolved problem that others have tried to deal with?

[AqD]

3) Barbarians grow too slowly

I agree but isn't this realistic? I mean they were always fighting against each other, reducing populations, and therefore their advancement was slower than unified and politically-stable carthaginians or romans.
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Adellina

[Wien1938]

I would agree with aqd that we do not need to worry about their population growth. Political stability is key to growth and as he points out, they do not possess much of that, except in small quantities (strong tribes as factions?).

[Jamey]

I agree but isn't this realistic? I mean they were always fighting against each other, reducing populations, and therefore their advancement was slower than unified and politically-stable carthaginians or romans.

The problem is the gameplay issue that if the barbarian factions don't grow, they cannot make their large but week military units and become speed bumps (at best) to the civilized factions.

[Wien1938]

Actually the best way of handling troops and population would be to for recruited troops to literally be removed from the recruiting city's population. Clear choice then between military or civilian expansion.

[Jamey]

Actually the best way of handling troops and population would be to for recruited troops to literally be removed from the recruiting city's population. Clear choice then between military or civilian expansion.

That is how it works. When you recruit a unit with 120 men, the population declines by that amount. When you disband a unit with 120 men, the population increases by that amount. One problem with barbarian factions is that they start with small populations and a need to recruit large numbers of weak troops for military expansion to occur. Since the AI refuses to ever stop trying to conquer its neighbors (and it almost never prioritizes growth in its construction), it will never have civilian expansion be a priority.

For example, with a couple of failed wars, it is entirely possible for the AI in RTRPE to recruit Germania down to the point that it can no longer train units because of a lack of population.

[Wien1938]

Well, I never noticed...

[Delvecchio1975]

For example, with a couple of failed wars, it is entirely possible for the AI in RTRPE to recruit Germania down to the point that it can no longer train units because of a lack of population.

it happens quite often in the south of gaul and anatolia as well, especially the south anatolian cities (side, adana, halicarnassus, ... )