Α tale from the Byzantine Empire: Manzikert

**Carl von Döbeln** · October 01, 2008, 09:07 AM

Very good article!

**The Noble Lord** · October 01, 2008, 01:48 PM

That battle should not have happened. It was the intention of the Seljuks to fight Fatimids and to leave Byzantines alone for a time being. But, the internal power struggles in Constantinople made Romanus Diogenes to looj for the fight. And betrayal of the Phocas family during the battle shows us why the Emperor intended to fight when he had most soldiers under his command. Because he wanted a victory, it would strenghten his position in Constantinople.

**Romanos IV** · October 01, 2008, 02:41 PM

You're right, except that the famuly name was "Dukas".

**The Noble Lord** · October 01, 2008, 03:57 PM

Honestly, I was gonna say Ducas, but I was in a hurry and two very important families from that time were in my head, Ducas and Phocas.
Of course it was the Ducas family that plotted against the Emperor and it was young general named Andronicus Ducas who at the important and critical moment in the battle left the battlefield with his infantry of Anatolian Themes.
Alp Arslan saw that from the hill, ordered general attack and the rest is history.
I wrote quite a few articles on Manzikert, Fall of Constantinople, and Byzantium on other threads.

CHEERS

**white-wolf** · October 03, 2008, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by The Noble Lord

Of course it was the Ducas family that plotted against the Emperor and it was young general named Andronicus Ducas who at the important and critical moment in the battle left the battlefield with his infantry of Anatolian Themes.
Alp Arslan saw that from the hill, ordered general attack and the rest is history.
I wrote quite a few articles on Manzikert, Fall of Constantinople, and Byzantium on other threads.

CHEERS

Nay. It was walking back of main Byz troops that caused Seljuk attack. It was their planning before battle, actually this tactic is very old steppe tactic. Draw enemy from base, pepper them with arrows from everywhere, when they show signs of panic attack them from every where.

When Byz Emperor gave the sign of return back, many soldiers think that was a retreat. After that, powerfull Seljuk attacks was undone of Byzs.

I think that Ducas general had not many chances to turn battle from a lost. At least he managed to have a partition of army intact.

**Faramir D'Andunie** · October 03, 2008, 11:20 AM

Ahem, who told you Ducas even wanted to help the "besieged" emperor?

The chaos of conflicting orders was such that the Emperor was left with a handfull of troops.

The more one studies the battle(or the more I do) I see that the battle itself was not really important as the political events that followed it.
If for example byzantines won, it wouldn't be known as anything above border skirmish.

**Romanos IV** · October 03, 2008, 11:24 AM

When the Emperor gave the sign to return to the camp, the Seljuks attacked. The mercenaries and some cavalry fled. The situation could be saved, but Andronicus Dukas simply... left. He could have saved the day, as he had about 10,000 troops under his commands.

**The Noble Lord** · October 03, 2008, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by Romanos IV

The situation could be saved, but Andronicus Dukas simply... left. He could have saved the day, as he had about 10,000 troops under his commands.

Thats precisely my point, Andronicus Dukas would've made a difference if he didn't flee. Lots of other historians blame him for the Byzantine defeat at Manzikert.

**Eastern Roman** · October 03, 2008, 06:17 PM

Originally Posted by Belisarius85

If for example byzantines won, it wouldn't be known as anything above border skirmish.

true

**iksterminator** · October 04, 2008, 09:47 AM

hah, it has some good detailes behind the scene, if you really want to know the issua look and read here

http://www.deremilitari.org/resource...es/markham.htm
extremely good source

**frontier-auxilia** · October 04, 2008, 11:16 AM

It just another fine precedent to show how a house fractured can't stand.

If Dukas was replaced with someone more loyal, i guess the Byzantine can atleast fought the seljuk to a stand still.

I disagree Noble lord, if that cavalry reserve was present to counter charge the already engaged seljuk heavy cavalry, it would have advert disaster. Also it would stop a further contingent of Armenian from leaving thus inciting others with the same motive. Despite that the Byzantine army was rather poor. What present there was more of a combination of quick raised militia and mercenaries instead of the cream of the crop like most amateur historians suggested.