Aslan Maskhadov is dead

[Siblesz]

Russian forces say Chechen rebel leader Aslan Maskhadov has been killed.
Russian television showed pictures of a body resembling that of Mr Maskhadov, 53, in a pool of blood in Chechnya.

President Vladimir Putin has asked for further identification. However, Mr Maskhadov's envoy in London, Akhmed Zakayev, later confirmed the death.

Mr Zakayev said resistance in Chechnya would continue despite the death of Mr Maskhadov, seen as the most moderate of Chechnya's rebel commanders.

Mr Maskhadov was elected Chechen president in January 1997 but was ousted two years later.

Thousands of people - many of them civilians - have been killed in the 10-year war between Russian forces and Chechen separatists.

Further identification

Few details have been released of the Russian operation at the settlement of Tolstoy-Yurt, near the Chechen capital, Grozny.

Gen Ilya Shabalkin, a spokesman for Russian forces in the Caucasus region, earlier told news agencies that Mr Maskhadov's body had been found in a bunker.

But it was not clear whether he had been killed by Russian forces.

Chechnya's Moscow-appointed Deputy Prime Minister Ramzan Kadyrov told Interfax news agency the intention had been to take Mr Maskhadov alive, but he had been killed as a result of his bodyguards' carelessness in handling their weapons.

Russia's FSB security chief briefed President Putin on the troops' operation in a Chechen village, but did not say how Mr Maskhadov was killed.

He told the president the FSB security services "today carried out an operation in the settlement of Tolstoy-Yurt, as a result of which the international terrorist and leader of armed groups Maskhadov was killed, and his closest comrades-in-arms detained".

"Carry out additional identification tests, report back," Mr Putin ordered.

"If this information is confirmed, grant state awards to all those involved in the operation," the Russian leader said.

"We have to gather our forces to protect the people of the republic and citizens of all Russia from the bandits," Mr Putin said.

Russian also television showed pictures of a grey-bearded and shirtless corpse in a pool of blood.

If the death is confirmed, this will be a major coup for Moscow, the BBC's Sarah Rainsford in Moscow says.

Moscow has blamed Mr Maskhadov for a string of deadly attacks in Russia, including a rebel attack on a school in the south Russian town of Beslan last September in which more than 330 hostages - half of them children - died.

He led the Chechen separatists who defeated Russian forces in a 1994-1996 war.

Mr Putin sent Russian troops back into Chechnya in October 1999.

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4330039.stm



He was no terrorist... he was a just a rebel with a cause. The Russians blamed him for the Beslan school terrorist attack, even though he condemend these attacks and said that forces under his command had nothing to do with it. He lead the 1994-1996 war with Russia that ended with Russia's retreat of Chechnya, and he also lead the preace process with Russia in 1996. He was elected president of Chechnya in 1997, and was a moderate in contrast to other Chechen leaders.

The Russian military murdered this man, even though they state that it was an accident and that they wanted to "keep him alive". It is good for Putin to have this man dead. It will justify Putin's actions to make Russia more totalitarian, and because of Maskhadov's death, Russians now have their scapegoat terrorist dead, and now they can go along to say how right they were in their past actions, and how right they will be in their future ones. Maskhadov's dead corpse is being paraded on camera just like Uday and Qusay's, and the Russian people will feel more secure that their "terrorist enemy" has been killed. That's right Russia... no more dead Russian children for you! At least that's what Russians think...

I can't help but to support Chechnya in this conflict... not all Chechen rebels are mad terrorist gunmen who kill children. Actually, it is my belief that a great majority of the Chechen rebels are in it for independence and freedom. Funny how the great America supports Russia in the Chechen conflict, even though more than 100,000 Chechen civilians have died because of Russian aggression. And if you haven't heard of some of the horrors that the Russians have done in Chechnya, click these links:

http://hrw.org/campaigns/russia/chechnya/
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGEU...open&of=ENG-2U4
http://www.hrvc.net/articles/meek.htm

And here's a very lovely account of a massacre by the Russians in Katyr Yurt.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/article/0...,191798,00.html


Another holocaust is happening right in front of us, and no one cares. This proves my nihilist/existentialist ideology right once again. Humanity is meaningless. Hundreds of thousands have been murdered right in front of our eyes, yet they have been ignored and forgotten by the World. It is just another statistic. Their lives were meaningless to the World, and none will be honored. Those thousands of innocents have been forgotten, and thousands more are awaiting their deaths as this conflict continues.

[Marshal Qin]

odd.. I was just saying the same thing in an e-mail to my mother about the world's so called concern about humanitarian issues (talking about tiananmen and falun gong). Its just another political tool thats used by governments to put pressure on other governments to further their own agendas. When it has no benefit for them, they ignore these issues it seems.

[wilpuri]

Not the first head of state Russia muders. The former Chechen President, Dudayev, was a good man in my books. He was killed by a Russian missile, after they triangulated his position from the signal of his satellite phone.

I firmly believe Russia should take most of the blame for radicalizing the Chechen resistance into a radical islamist cause from its nationalist origins. Foreing money, fighters and weapons (mostly Arab) have flowed into the country since the first war in 94-96, and thoroughly changed the appearance of the Chechen resistance. I blame the Russian governments for this, and they way they have handled the situation. Again they took out the most credible moderate leader, which now leaves a vaccuum which will be soon occupied by radical islamists.

Screw Putin.

[Marshal Qin]

But is that not a good idea when you can then use the 'radical' nature of your enemy to justify almost any action that you wish to take? Putin is free to do as he pleases now that world opinion can't see any reasonable or moderate actions from the Chechnyans. It might suck what he's doing, but as far as political strategy goes, its smart imo.

[wilpuri]

Originally posted by Marshal Qin@Mar 11 2005, 05:06 AM
But is that not a good idea when you can then use the 'radical' nature of your enemy to justify almost any action that you wish to take? Putin is free to do as he pleases now that world opinion can't see any reasonable or moderate actions from the Chechnyans. It might suck what he's doing, but as far as political strategy goes, its smart imo.

Well its hardly necessary. Russians are scared :wub: as it is, and the west/rest of the world couldn't giving a flying F-ck about what Russia does within 'its' borders.

[Marshal Qin]

Originally posted by wilpuri@Mar 11 2005, 01:15 AM
Well its hardly necessary. Russians are scared :wub: as it is, and the west/rest of the world couldn't giving a flying F-ck about what Russia does within 'its' borders.

maybe he just wants to cover all bases. You know the 'human rights' kick the US is on, whats to say that they don't turn on Russia in the future? It may not be necessary now but (in his view) it may be a good way to say to the yanks later: "we had to crack down on terrorism in Chechnya as you did in Afghanistan, Iraq and other places. There was no middle ground and no-one to negotiate with"

[morble]

I lost all sympathy after the movie theater and school incidents. As far as I'm concerned, Russia can turn Chechnya into a giant glowing glass bowl.

[wilpuri]

Originally posted by morble@Mar 11 2005, 01:16 PM
I lost all sympathy after the movie theater and school incidents. As far as I'm concerned, Russia can turn Chechnya into a giant glowing glass bowl.

Well, it was the Russians who killed most of those people...
Anyway, I do not sympathize with terrorists, but the fact that it was brutal Russian oppression that effectively turned the Chechen resistance into a radical islamist resistance should not be held against the Chechens as a people. The suffering of civilians is immense in Chechenya, its no wonder some people wanted to take the war 'to the Russians' so to say.

[Trax]

This is a disgusting political murder of the lawful president of the Chechen Republic elected to office on free and fair elections.
With his death the last hope for the peace in the region is faded I´m afraid.

Russia has once again justified her image as the executioner of small nations.

[username]

The russians dont want to solve this 'problem' called Chechnya - they want it simmering forever so they can have a reason for keeping large forces in the caucasus and preventing Georgia from complete independence. Hundreds of thousands of people are killed for this pathetic reason. As for what Morble said - its like saying that after what the Sioux did to some settler colony you dont care if the apache are being annihilated. It makes no sense...

[Kazak borispavlovgrozny]

Originally posted by username@Mar 12 2005, 07:30 AM
The russians dont want to solve this 'problem' called Chechnya - they want it simmering forever so they can have a reason for keeping large forces in the caucasus and preventing Georgia from complete independence. Hundreds of thousands of people are killed for this pathetic reason. As for what Morble said - its like saying that after what the Sioux did to some settler colony you dont care if the apache are being annihilated. It makes no sense...

word. Beslan and Theather got a lot of play. Urus martan, Shali, Argun, Kamishev, Kalinosvskaya, none of these russian atrocities against civilian targets get any outlets on the america or western media. easy to take sides when one is almost forcibly uneducated. I dotn sympathize with the terrorists, but I do sympathized with the resistance, I want an independet chechnya.

[wilpuri]

Originally posted by borispavlovgrozny@Mar 12 2005, 08:35 PM
word. Beslan and Theather got a lot of play. Urus martan, Shali, Argun, Kamishev, Kalinosvskaya, none of these russian atrocities against civilian targets get any outlets on the america or western media. easy to take sides when one is almost forcibly uneducated. I dotn sympathize with the terrorists, but I do sympathized with the resistance, I want an independet chechnya.

word.

[wilpuri]

Originally posted by TranceCrusader@Mar 18 2005, 07:37 AM
From a Russian:

They can not have freedom, this is stupid, what if out of no where Utah wanted independence, whould you give it to them? no. Not to mention the fact that YES most of the chech's are terrorists, and infact do support and condone attacks against Russia and our civilians. Personally If I was king of Russia, I would simply eradicate ALL of Chechnya... men, women, children, ALL OF IT.


.

word.

This didn't come 'out of no where'. The Chechens have been fighting the Russians ever since the Russian Empire spread to encompass THEIR lands. Chechens are not Russians.
Most of the Chechens are terrorists? Can you somehow back this up? I think most Chechens live in refugee camps somewhere in Ingushetia, trying to scratch a living. If I was a Chechen I would probably condone attacks against Russians though, since most Russians condoned Putins actions of invading Chechenya, which lead to the death of hundreds of thousands of civilians. How many Russians have died of Chechen violence outside of Chechenya? Now compare this to their populations, you will find the numbers rather disproportionate.

[wilpuri]

Originally posted by TranceCrusader+Mar 18 2005, 09:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td> (TranceCrusader @ Mar 18 2005, 09:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by wilpuri@Mar 18 2005, 12:35 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-TranceCrusader

@Mar 18 2005, 07:37 AM
From a Russian:

They can not have freedom, this is stupid, what if out of no where Utah wanted independence, whould you give it to them? no. Not to mention the fact that YES most of the chech&#39;s are terrorists, and infact do support and condone attacks against Russia and our civilians. Personally If I was king of Russia, I would simply eradicate ALL of Chechnya... men, women, children, ALL OF IT.


.

word.

This didn&#39;t come &#39;out of no where&#39;. The Chechens have been fighting the Russians ever since the Russian Empire spread to encompass THEIR lands. Chechens are not Russians.
Most of the Chechens are terrorists? Can you somehow back this up? I think most Chechens live in refugee camps somewhere in Ingushetia, trying to scratch a living. If I was a Chechen I would probably condone attacks against Russians though, since most Russians condoned Putins actions of invading Chechenya, which lead to the death of hundreds of thousands of civilians. How many Russians have died of Chechen violence outside of Chechenya? Now compare this to their populations, you will find the numbers rather disproportionate.

Thats the thing tho, Chechnya has NOT be fighting Russia, they have been blowing up our trains, bus stations, schools, and subways. What they are fighting for matters little, they are conquered, they are part of Russia, like it or not. They don&#39;t have the power to dictate otherwise, however; they are not rebeling, they are killing people, most of which aren&#39;t even involved in the war. If you support them so much ratify for the the school incident, or when they set up a high caliber machine gun outside of a Russian houseing building and opened fire. This is the finest example of terrorism, and worst of all, everytime and incident like this happens the Chechen public roars in approval. So forgive me for wanting them sacked off the face of the earth for what they are doing my people.


And yes there have been very cruel arts by the Russians done to the Chechens, I condone this with all of my heart, mercy and reason does not work with these people, cruel and inhumain treatment however might. Two wrongs do not make a right, but they do make it even. [/b][/quote]
The Baltic states had been conquered, yet they were granted independence around the break-up of the USSR. Why not Chechenya? Because of the big fat pipeline running through it and the access to the Black Sea that it provides. When did the Chechens begin their campaign of terror? After the 94-96 war. Im not trying to say that "you started it", but it is obvious that it was Russian brutality, aggression and indiscriminate TERROR which radicalized the Chechen resistance.

This is the finest example of terrorism, and worst of all, everytime and incident like this happens the Chechen public roars in approval.

And yes there have been very cruel arts by the Russians done to the Chechens, I condone this with all of my heart

??

Just because Russia has an internationally recognized government and armed forces, its ok to ****** over the Chechens? You show the same lack of consideration for the big picture of the situation that is so typical of Russians under Putin. This didnt use to be a war on terror, Russia made it one. Aslan Maskhadov did not take part in the Beslan bombings, he was a moderate. That seems to have been Putins policy: kill the moderates/nationalists, make way for the radical islamists and declare war on terror. How handy.

[KingOfTheIsles]

Or is it that Russia only gave independance to areas that were dirt-poor, and couldn&#39;t stand economically on their own and thus Moscow would be guaranteed considerable influence? However, the rich areas who could potentially survive weren&#39;t given freedom.

[wilpuri]

Originally posted by TranceCrusader@Mar 18 2005, 09:43 PM
You are correct, there are things in Chechnya that we want, nor am I denying this fact, I am a very nationalistic Russian, but I do see the big picture, Chechnya is useful to us so we will not let it go. Nor will they even be able to do anything with their freedom, they need us as much as we need them, only they can&#39;t admit it because they are blinded by their stupid little freedom jihad. Look at all the countries that seperated from Russia; Ukrain, Kazakstan, etc... they are dirt poor and barley able to keep their people alive. We gave them their freedom, and now they are begging us for money to help them along. Same will happen with Chechnya, only it won&#39;t, because we will not allow them to be free. Putin does not want them to be another charity case.

Nationalism has been used as an excuse for genocide before, I suppose.

Living conditions in the Baltic States, for example, are much higher than they are in Russia or than they were when they were under the USSR. And how would you know what Chechens are capable, when they have never been given an opportunity to even try? I bet the war in Chechenya is far more costly than any &#39;Charity&#39; the Russians have ever taken part in.

[username]

Personally If I was king of Russia, I would simply eradicate ALL of Chechnya... men, women, children, ALL OF IT

With these words you lost all hope to be taken seriously. Looking at your following posts (about the baltic states) you sound like an ultra patriotic member of Putin Jugend. I actualy wonder what are you doing in the symposium.

[Mehmed II]

Personally If I was king of Russia, I would simply eradicate ALL of Chechnya... men, women, children, ALL OF IT.

Trancecrusader, that is completely wrong but, understandable... As a turkish guy, I have pretty much witnessed the same things as you did. The Turkish army had its skirmishes with Pkk kurds while Russians with Chechens. First, I was just thinking like you did; who the ****** do these people think they are that they are actually fighting for their baloney nation. Then I noticed what was behind the curtains; seeing the difference between the west and the east turkey, I&#39;ve noticed that our retarded and corrupt politicians turned Eastern Anatolia into a craphole while they wasted all their time on the west. They didn&#39;t give a chance to our citizens (Turkish kurdish it really does not make a difference) a chance to prosper..No healthcare, police, schools, nothing.... and those citizens had couple of people promising them a future if they fought against the turks and here we have that conflict now.... For almost 20 years, Turks are paying the price of the mistakes their statesmen made. 30 thousand people dead so far, god knows how many Kurds died...

Believe me, I can understand you. You&#39;re expressing your anger saying that they&#39;re doing nothing but attacking civilians, but ask yourself this: What has been left in Grozny after all those bombings? Siblesz, just couple of days ago, said that about 20 percent of the Chechens perished? 20 percent Trance&#33; and they&#39;re still fighting, more radical than ever before. Why?

[Trax]

Do not compare Chechenya to Utah, but to Quebec,
The people of Quebec got their chance of freedom, they held a referendum and decided to remain part of Canada.

Chechen terrorists have killed perhaps some 2000-3000 Russians
Russian army has killed some 150 000 Chechens - so quit whining :sick

And concerning living conditions:

Russia Estonia
GDP per capita &#036;8,900 (2003 est.) &#036;12,300 (2003 est.)
Inflation 13.7% (2003 est.) 1.3% (2003 est.)

also the difference of minimum wages is almost ten times in favour of Estonia.

[username]

The question is not in differences of opinion but in the fact that the opinions you are voicing are racist and fascist and are directly against the code of the symposium. I am not happy to read, or have my posts next to, fascist posts.

As for the baltic states - I dont need a plane ticket, I can read digits and usually economic statistics are made of them. There are also enough members of the forum hailing from the baltic republics who can speak for themselves.