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Thread: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Scribonius/Aelinus

  1. #141
    Winter's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Scribonius/Aelinus

    I cry wolf over nothing senator Falco. We simply must take Taras before Pyrrhus can turn his attention away from Macedonia and back to Italy, it is that simple. With the city still in Tarentine, and thus Epriote, control, Pyrrhus still has a formidable base from which to launch a second invasion, should he be so inclined. However, if we are able to remove that option, Pyrrhus will no doubt decide not to attack Italy. That is, unless he is a total fool.

    With Taras taken we will be free to improve life at home and strengthen our economy. We will also have troops free to punish the traitors in the north and south. We cannot afford to wait until they can rebuild and recieve reinforcement.

    And on a side note, I find it laughable that I am accused of crying wolf when you so loudly proclaimed that a Carthaginian war is "looming", only to a few moments later retract your statement...

    As for the fleet, it has been shown that we are currently allied to the Carthaginian Republic so I have vetoed the outstanding motion that would require a successful trade offer to disband said fleet. It is not in the interest of the people for the Senate to waste valuable time debating and voting on a voided issue. Instead I call for a simple vote on whether or not the senate shall disband the Oneria fleet.
    Last edited by Winter; September 21, 2008 at 12:47 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel Jeb View Post
    Hah, you're always so helpful to threads Winter. No wonder you got citizen!


  2. #142
    Gaius Julius Civilis's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Scribonius/Aelinus

    I never called upon the brave people of Rome to start a war on Carthage, that would be foolish considering the financial benefits a peace with Carthage has. I merely warned the Senate against a too optimistical view on world politics. As we grow Carthage isn't going to stand idly by. It will feel threatened by us as we grow, whether that is our intention or not. I want the Senate and the Republic to be ready for war with Carthage when it comes, I do not want Rome to initiate that war unless there is absolutely no other way.
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  3. #143

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Scribonius/Aelinus

    Then we agree!

    As for the fleet, it should be disbanded, and as quickly as possible in my mind, it costs too much to keep and it is not needed.

    When it comes to Taras, the operation is underway and we just have to wait for news.
    People will believe a lie because they want it to be true; or they're afraid it's true.
    Given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe its true, or because they're afraid it might be true. Peoples' heads are full of knowledge, facts and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool.

  4. #144

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Scribonius/Aelinus

    Shall there be a motion concerning the disbanding of this fleet? Or can we just decide it amongst ourselves?

  5. #145

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Scribonius/Aelinus

    I declare myself in favor of such disbanding motion.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  6. #146
    Winter's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Scribonius/Aelinus

    I think there is general agreement that the fleet must be disbanded. However, should the Consul wish, I would ask him to open such a motion as soon as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel Jeb View Post
    Hah, you're always so helpful to threads Winter. No wonder you got citizen!


  7. #147

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Scribonius/Aelinus

    Cursus Honorum Ammendments

    Senators, there is also an issue worth noticing! With our rapid expansion, I say, there are certain duties that become excessively burdened by the sheer amount of duties they hold with the Res Publica. It is with this in mind that I propose a motion here increasing the number of Quaestor and valid for the next Senatorial Elections; besides it, I think our Constitution is a bit vague on certain issues of authority to Quaestors, which I now propose to clarify.

    I initially intended this motion to apply only to Quaestors, but gradually expanded the scope of my work to include the whole Cursus Honorum in separate sessions that can be discussed apart or not. I have made some additions to our Constitution that I felt as essential, but I wish that parts concerning different offices be voted separately.


    Ammendment to Article I "Quaestors" Session

    Current Article:

    Quaestors are responsible for the economy of the Republic.

    One Quaestor shall be elected annually. Each term, he must present to the senate a report on the finances of Rome, detailing the projected treasury and any other pertinent information. He may request a tax increase.

    Senators must be 28 (patricians) or 30 (Plebeians) to run for this office.
    Ammended Article

    Quaestors are responsible for the economy of the Republic.

    Several Quaestors shall be elected annually. Each term, they must present to the senate a report on the finances of Rome, detailing the projected treasury and any other pertinent information, depending on their assigned provinces. They may request a tax increase to their pertinent areas (see below).

    Quaestors elected may be assigned one or more provinces according to their desire and the deliberations of the Senate. The provinces they rule will be their effective area of work and their effective area of legal authority as defined in the Constitution.

    Quaestors might regulate taxes at their will in their assigned areas, increasing or reducing them according to their needs. They are subject to the veto of their higher authority, Consular and Praetorial in Roman Italia, or Proconsular and Propraetorial in the Provinces.

    During each election, Proconsuls, Propraetors, Consuls and the Senate will post the required number of Quaestors for Italia or the provinces, thus creating flexibility and ensuring there are enough men in office to keep order in the finances of the Res Publica. Proconsuls, Propraetors and Consuls might request new Quaestors during the year to be appointed by the Senate.

    Senators must be 28 (patricians) or 30 (Plebeians) to run for this office.
    Ammendments to the "Tribune of the Plebs" Section

    Original Article:

    The Tribunes are the people’s guardians in the senate hall.

    Up to two Tribunes shall be elected annually from eligible Plebeians. Their sole duty is to fight against legislation that would disadvantage the lower classes, the Plebeians, of Rome. The sole power of the Tribune resides in the Veto.

    The Tribunal veto allows the Tribune to halt any vote, action, motion, or legislation within the pomeriums of Rome. They may use the veto on the following, and nothing else:
    Motions in debate
    Motions during voting
    Amendments to the Constitution during debate
    Amendments during voting
    Actions taken by any official, including the Censor
    THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE MOTIONS TO RECALL THE TRIBUNE

    To be Tribune, a senator must have been elected Quaestor
    Ammended Article:

    The Tribunes are the Plebs' guardians in the Senate hall.

    Up to two Tribunes shall be elected annually from eligible Plebeians. Their sole duty is to fight against legislation that would disadvantage the lower classes, the Plebeians, of Rome, and protect them from abuse by Republican Magistrates.

    The Tribunal veto allows the Tribune to halt any vote, action, motion, or legislation within the pomeriums of Rome. They may use the veto on the following, and nothing else:

    - Motions in debate
    - Motions during voting
    - Amendments to the Constitution during debate
    - Amendments during voting
    - Actions taken by any official, including the Censor

    THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE MOTIONS TO RECALL THE TRIBUNE

    The Tribune of the Plebs is considered a starting path in the Cursus Honorum. No previous requirements are necessary.

    Here I have basically done some minor changes besides eliminating the requirement of Quaestorship for the office. Discuss while I prepare more.
    Last edited by Marie Louise von Preussen; September 21, 2008 at 06:39 PM.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  8. #148

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Scribonius/Aelinus

    Praetors

    Original Article:

    The Praetors are the judges of the Roman courts.

    Two praetors shall be elected annually. They shall run the courts of Rome, by creating a trial in a separate thread in which they will sit as judge with senators providing defence and prosecutorial services for the mock accused. The trial must complete after the term of one year.

    Should a senatorial trial arise, the Praetor Urbanis, or Praetor that garnered the most votes in the elections, shall preside.

    Successful completion of the Cursus up to Aedile (optional) for Patricians and Tribune of the Plebeians for Plebeians is required to attain this office.
    Ammended Article:

    The Praetors are the judges of the Roman courts.

    Two praetors shall be elected annually. They shall run the courts of Rome, by creating a trial in a separate thread in which they will sit as judge with senators providing defence and prosecutorial services for the mock accused. The trial must complete after the term of one year.

    Should a senatorial trial arise, the Praetor Urbanis, or Praetor that garnered the most votes in the elections, shall preside.

    Successful completion of the Cursus up to Aedile (optional) for Patricians and Tribune of the Plebeians or Aedile for Plebeians is required to attain this office.
    Propraetors


    Propraetor are governors that “act as if they are praetors”

    The amount of Propraetors will be determined by Senatorial Decree on if any province will be assigned to them or to Proconsuls. The Senate will decide, after the conquest and legal recognition of a Province, if it shall be a Propraetorship or Proconsulate. Propraetors, after elected, might choose their Propraetorships where they exist, with the Propraetor with the highest votes getting preference in choice, and so on.

    Propraetorial imperium is similar to Proconsular imperium in every way except that they may not raise named legions of Rome – only auxiliary armies. Named legions require a writ of approval from the senate. Propraetorial governors may post the number of Quaestors they require for their provinces, not to exceed the number of two (see relevant article for Quaestors).

    Successful completion of the Cursus up to Praetor is required to attain this office. Should enough candidates not be available, the Consuls shall with the senate appoint suffectus governors to the provinces.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  9. #149

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Scribonius/Aelinus

    Basically I wish to divide this on different sections according to the office ammended in the Constution. So these in fact are separate motions for:

    I. Quaestors
    II. Tribunes of the Plebs
    III. Praetors
    IV. Propraetors

    And more, as they come.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  10. #150
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Scribonius/Aelinus

    Occ: great job Voltaire
    I accept this adament, a single tribune has to much power, by deviding his power between two tribunes there power will be less.
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  11. #151
    Winter's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Scribonius/Aelinus

    The Praetor article is void as we no longer have an aedile position, senator. Also, it would probably be a good idea to change all the ending statements that read " Successful completion of the cursus is required..." to "...is strongly recommended...".

    As to the quaestor article. You mention that in Italia they would be subject to veto from Consuls and Praetors. This is untrue; Consuls may only veto eachother, and Praetors have no veto power as it stands now. You may wish to say they would be subject to oversight from the Senatus.

    The tribune article is fine. I can also assure my fellow senator (Maxim victor's roman name here) that the article removes no power from the tribunes, or I would most assuredly veto it. I will oppose any measure that would take any power from the people's guardians.

    That all said, I do not like the sound of multiple quaestors in the provinces, assuming we ever gain them. I forsee far to few quaestors to do a job that a governor really should be able to do.

    Therefore I oppose the adoption of the quaestor amendment, and though I will not veto it as it does not directly undermine the people, I must insist that it be stricken from this motion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel Jeb View Post
    Hah, you're always so helpful to threads Winter. No wonder you got citizen!


  12. #152

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Scribonius/Aelinus

    In fact, in regards to Praetors and Aediles, you have highlighted the exact problem with our Constitution. It is old and decrepit, based on a previous incarnation of YATS. I did not know that Aediles did not exist, but I suggest that we make a new referendum and write a new updated Constitution.

    The veto from Consuls and Praetors is merely the veto from a superior authority, like the veto from a Proconsul to a provincial Quaestor. Quaestorial decisions be made null and void through Tribunician veto (for Italia Romana) or by Senatorial decree (for all the Empire). Anyways, considering that our expansion is imminent, one quaestor will have quite a hard work tallying the whole finances of the Republic, and the attitude we must look forward is to increase their number at our will, since they do basic but essential work. I did not set an exact number of Quaestors so we can be flexible enough about them, particularly in their numbers, which are ultimately decided by Senatorial vote.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  13. #153

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Scribonius/Aelinus

    It seems to me that at the present time there is no apparent need for a change in the constitution.
    People will believe a lie because they want it to be true; or they're afraid it's true.
    Given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe its true, or because they're afraid it might be true. Peoples' heads are full of knowledge, facts and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool.

  14. #154
    Xavier Dragnesi's Avatar Esse quam videre
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Scribonius/Aelinus

    I'm quite sure that before the Senate began its first session, I gave the chance for anyone with amendments for the Constitution to voice his proposals, so I am slightly surprised this is coming up again now.

    On the other hand, about the proposals themselves, I feel no objection to any of those changes apart from the ones involving the Quaestor. The amendments say that each province should have a quaestor, a total number of them to be fixed before the elections. However, as Rome continues to grow and expand, our number of provinces will definitely grow. Yet we have a limited amount of senators. So there may come to a point where there are too many provinces for the Senate to provide quaestors for, or the need for quaestors becomes so big that the rest of the magistracies cannot be filled. We cannot let that happen, having a Praetor or a Consul is far more important than having a Quaestor in each province. So I would like to hear your solution to this long term problem. If it is liable and acceptable, I shall fully embrace the amendments.

  15. #155

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Scribonius/Aelinus

    If the number of Quaestors isn't reached, then we will work with less. Don't worry, we are experient in dealing with such manpower shortages here; besides, if the Senate decides we don't need many Quaestors, then we will try not having one quaestor per province and so on. The number will be flexible and will vary between elections.

    As for the Constitutional ammendments, at first I wasn't here in time, and second, only now I detected these discrepancies. I think we need an updated Constitution that does not reference obsolete magistrates such as "Aediles" so as to avoid confusion.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  16. #156
    Gaius Julius Civilis's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Scribonius/Aelinus

    ooc: remember the practical problem of the more people who need the save, the more people can screw up the passing of the save (don't tell me that's not a problem as the princeps senatus takes care of that, its gone wrong before, it may just go wrong again).

    ic: "Whereas I agree to the major points made by the proposal, I have my doubts with the Quaestor amendment."
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  17. #157
    Winter's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Scribonius/Aelinus

    So senator, you propose we adopt an amendment to our constitution, making it manditory, and if enough men are not found to fill the posts required we just pretend it doesn't exist? This is not how our senate operates, something you should well know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel Jeb View Post
    Hah, you're always so helpful to threads Winter. No wonder you got citizen!


  18. #158

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Scribonius/Aelinus

    Oh, Winter. Is it hard to understand ? Talking OOC, if there are plenty of fresh recruits then the Senate will increase the number of Quaestorships. If not, then we can be satisfied with one or two Quaestors as the Empire grows.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  19. #159
    Gaius Julius Civilis's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Scribonius/Aelinus

    On another note, the year is nearing its end, have we heard any news from our senior consul? Has he conquered his objective? And if not, do we automatically transfer his imperium to the next senior consul?
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