Sieges

[davidtotalwar]

I was just wondering what are your plans for siege battles. I believe the the AI needs to be improved for both when its attacking or defending, but I have no idea how you would do this.

But one thing I would like to know is whether your planning to use boiling oil from Kingdoms into your mod. If you are planning to use it then the AI must be improved, this is because the AI seems to act as if the boiling oil is not there and just charge through the gate and gets destroyed by the oil. It make defending in a siege battle far to easy.

One last think I was thinking that city and castle walls need to be stronger as in reality even if the attacking army had cannons it would take them a long time to bring down the walls giving the defender plenty of time to get ready for the attack. But in the game you can bring down the wall with a few shot with a cannon allowing you to make so many holes in the city walls it just becomes stupid.

I am also interested to see if any one else has any ideas on how to improve siege battles.

[mayhem87]

yeah walls needs to be stronger at least

[OdinX]

I'm surprised at how little people are answering this post. but I think the AI needs to at least be improved in terms of sieges. There are so many flaws with the AI, but this becomes apparent in battle. Not only is the enemy AI a total dunce, but so are your reinforcements (should you have any).

[davidtotalwar]

Yer I am also surprised to see that no one has really answered any of my questions but never mind, this mod looks like it will hard work to get it working so the mod builders (or what ever they call them selves) are probably to busy to comment and I don't blame them one bit.

[Copperknickers II]

Afaik, we have not made any changes to the seige battles as of yet, but i am pretty sure that boiling oil will be included. Im not sure however, i dont work on that area of gameplay.

[Stinkfloyd]

Xeyryx is testing a new BAI in which he has completely reworked the siege AI. It is really good so far but it is a WIP.

[OdinX]

Xeyryx is testing a new BAI in which he has completely reworked the siege AI. It is really good so far but it is a WIP.

Well nice to know someone is working on that.

[davidtotalwar]

I am not 100% shore when the mod time period is supposed to end so if what I am saying is not relevant then just don't pay any attention to this post.

I was wondering does this mod continue into the 16th century because if it does then city and castle fortifications need to have the ability to be improve in order to defend against cannon bombardment. There were several different designs used during the 16th century but there was some basic principles for these new fortifications.

Walls were lowered and thickened, towers were replaced by Bastions. Bastions were built to the same hight as the walls but jutted out from the wall which served two roles. One was to allow fire to be brought down next to the wall in order to defend a breach or stop enemies attacking the walls. Second was to force enemy cannons further away from the walls making the less effective.

(I know my description would have looked a lot better if I had shown a few diagrams but my scanner is not working at the moment so I cant load any of them on to my pc)

These improvements were very resilient to cannon fire returning the balance of power back to the defender in siege warfare. However these new fortifications took a lot more men to defend them than the old medieval castles. They were also very expensive to build so most cities just modified there old walls by building earth fortifications and deep ditches. They also tried chopping the top of the wall off and sticking a few cannons on. But by the mid 16th century the new design had become very popular.

So back to my original question, if this mod continues into the 16th century will these new fortifications be represented?

[sirfiggin]

for the sieges, if possible the ai should attempt to clear the walls before going through the gate as this would mitigate the oil.

[billydilly]

Xeryx is promising great improvements in the upcoming XBAI, so I'm looking forward to that

[Captain.E.Blackadder]

Cravy AI just don't get it abount boiling oil their going to bring my king pain!! (say in mr.t's voice)

[OdinX]

One thing that I'm thinking about is the fact that rams and other such siege engines will be able to knock down even stone walls. This is gonna be a headache when you're being under siege by the enemy. Not only will they most likely bring some siege towers, but rams to break down sections of your wall. However, this presents as a great strategy to you as well being able to actually split apart forces; attacking the front gates with siege towers all the while taking rams and ladders to the side walls or something as such. No longer will we feel safe just because we have stone walls.

[OdinX]

I am not 100% shore when the mod time period is supposed to end so if what I am saying is not relevant then just don't pay any attention to this post.

I was wondering does this mod continue into the 16th century because if it does then city and castle fortifications need to have the ability to be improve in order to defend against cannon bombardment. There were several different designs used during the 16th century but there was some basic principles for these new fortifications.

Walls were lowered and thickened, towers were replaced by Bastions. Bastions were built to the same hight as the walls but jutted out from the wall which served two roles. One was to allow fire to be brought down next to the wall in order to defend a breach or stop enemies attacking the walls. Second was to force enemy cannons further away from the walls making the less effective.

(I know my description would have looked a lot better if I had shown a few diagrams but my scanner is not working at the moment so I cant load any of them on to my pc)

These improvements were very resilient to cannon fire returning the balance of power back to the defender in siege warfare. However these new fortifications took a lot more men to defend them than the old medieval castles. They were also very expensive to build so most cities just modified there old walls by building earth fortifications and deep ditches. They also tried chopping the top of the wall off and sticking a few cannons on. But by the mid 16th century the new design had become very popular.

So back to my original question, if this mod continues into the 16th century will these new fortifications be represented?

Well from what I heard, the mod starts at 1080 and features 450 years of the medieval era, so that would mean the mod would stop in the year 1530 and in the early 16th century making your information relevant.

[McMarx]

Here's an idea... How about adding tents, carts, food supplies and camps around a sieged city when on the battlefield. It would simply add a bit of "Ambiance", highlighting the fact that the invading army's been living off the land or locations for a bit.
Theses items don't need to do anything, and can be outside the battle limits. Purpose: To look good.

[true born Lithuanian]

Here's an idea... How about adding tents, carts, food supplies and camps around a sieged city when on the battlefield. It would simply add a bit of "Ambiance", highlighting the fact that the invading army's been living off the land or locations for a bit.
Theses items don't need to do anything, and can be outside the battle limits. Purpose: To look good.

Yeah, it would look nice, I wonder if it is possible to do such thing... If its yes, then great, but if it use more PC recources then- NO

[spanish_emperor]

don't worry, if everything goes alright you will be able to put seige towers on the walls...that would make it a headache for the attacker
however, will the AI do the same when you attack?

[McMarx]

Yeah, it would look nice, I wonder if it is possible to do such thing... If its yes, then great, but if it use more PC recources then- NO

I believe it would be the rough equivalent of adding a tree. So there shouldn't be a big problem there... I think.

Also... The length of a siege seems unrealistic. To siege for 4 years seems impossible. I could be wrong, but changing this to a shorter time would make more sense. As a negative effect, this would also make assault sieges less common. Why attack and risk loosing men, when you can starve the enemy for 1 year (2 turns)and force to come to you.
You could cause the army to loose supply and patience which would result in the loss of moral and eventually desertion. For example, a week army can only siege a town or city for no more than x turns, while a big and strong army can siege for 2x turns.
Another way of going around this problem could be by adding 4 turns per year. This would make a one year siege last 4 turns rather than 2, which is already better than 2. I also understand that with a change like this come a million other problems.
Anyways... this is something to think about.

[davidtotalwar]

I think McMarx made a good point when he put "You could cause the army to loose supply and patience which would result in the loss of moral and eventually desertion. For example, a week army can only siege a town or city for no more than x turns, while a big and strong army can siege for 2x turns." (sorry but I can't get the proper quoting thing to work) Its a good idea because logistics in medieval times was so bad it normally coursed the besieging army to run out of food before the defenders in side the castle or fortified city did. So we need something in the game to represent this.

I have a few more ideas for sieges don't know if they are possible but just putting some more ideas forward.

Firstly I like the idea of battering rams being able to batter down parts of the wall but have the mod developers thought of any way for the defenders to stop that from happening. Historically there were many ways used by defenders to stop a battering ram breaking down their walls, some times they used hocks to jam the ram part next to the wall, or they but objects in front of the battering rams path to stop it getting to the wall or just coming out from behind the wall to attack the ram.

Another thing in the game there is nothing really stopping you from walking your armies around cities and border forts and attacking deep inside enemy territory. But that was imposable in real life as if you just walked past an enemy fort or castle then the garrison of that castle would start attacking your supply lines. This forced attacking armies to try and take every fort and castle along their root which no nation really had the money, troops or supplies to do which made deep attacks into enemy territory almost imposable in Western Europe in this time. So is there any way of representing this in the game?

Lastly does anyone else have an opinion on what I said before about when in the game it gets into the 16th century allowing us to make 16th century fortifications.

I am sorry if I keep going on about sieges but siege warfare was the dominate part of warfare in this time period and I would like to see it represented accordingly.

[OdinX]

I don't think you should apologize David, after all, this thread is based on sieges so...but besides, that you made some good points. I wonder if there's a way to represent some sort of resistance as you go in to enemy territory?

[McMarx]

That's a great idea! I think this should be limited to non crusading army's. Crusading army's could have some negative effects, but they shouldn't have as much. It would make a crusade really difficult for a faction far from the Crusade's objective city.
On the other hand this could add a whole new level of difficulty and make you think twice before going on a crusade.