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Thread: A Plebeian Manifesto-Part 1- Morale and Citizenship

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    Default A Plebeian Manifesto-Part 1- Morale and Citizenship

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    Last edited by attilavolciak07; October 04, 2008 at 03:31 PM.

  2. #2
    Augustus Lucifer's Avatar Life = Like a beanstalk
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    Default Re: A Plebeian Manifesto-Part 1- Morale and Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by attilavolciak07 View Post
    I'd like to say before hand, that I'm not looking for a debate. Please PM me or write on my profile messages if you want to debate. You are allowed to comment (obviously) but please, I won't debate.
    It is not any wonder why your posts never carry any weight. You even go so far, in an obscure area, as to post that you don't want to discuss your pretentious claims, and at the same time have gone into opposing members profiles and spammed their visitor messages with this drivel. This area is not for this kind of post, because your proposition is just that, a proposition for the site, even if it is in a veiled format. It is not your work to be critiqued, claiming it to be your work would immediately invalidate its purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by attilavolciak07 View Post
    Plebeians or Plebs for short, were the general body of the Roman republic. Basically, the rights were not sufficient to those of the Patricians, or the wealthy class. However, the Plebeians held a special power over the few hundered Patricians. This power was the workforce, the military and a good part of Rome's populace. By exploiting these points, the Plebs received better rights, simple as that. The Roman patricians did not want to lose 80% of their population, they wanted a military, they needed laborers, now you see, the Plebs threatened to leave Rome. The patricians feared this might happen, but they had no plan to back it up, so the Plebs achieved a tribune, or an official to represent the Plebs. This power grew until it was mandatory for a Pleb to become one of two consuls.
    Thanks for the history lesson, good to see you aren't trying to draw comparisons where there are none, and are just providing history out of the goodness of your heart!

    Quote Originally Posted by attilavolciak07 View Post
    Now my proposed institution, the Concilium Plebis or Plebeian Council in English, has not these rights, I agree they simply don't apply to this forum. We can't provide a military, we don't 'work' for this site. However, we have one key element that could prove costly. The majority of the population of this forum. Now I am in no means saying we will leave-far from it- but the fact we make up a majority of this site, and for us to not be represented means that the upper class created themselves a pickle. What if for say, some 14 year old comes along and says "Let's have a council or sub-forum for those who aren't in the Capitol". Judging by some harsh reaction, I would say this idea shocked many Citizens, some seem afraid. A council of Plebs would seem to grand for any Pleb out there, but, not for any Citizen out there. It is true that Citizens were once Plebs in this forum, but their new badge, new responsibility gives them an appreciation of being here. They feel different from the Plebs, until time comes they don't see themselves as Plebs at all. Below I will say my reasoning why a Plebeian council should function and its powers, and also its relations with the Curia. Now, I understand this proposal can't be too radical, I can't automatically ask for a huge council to rival the Curia or Hex, that would disrupt the system. But please listen to my reasoning.
    Well so much for the above sentiment.

    I'm frankly not sure where you get off trying to classify Citizens as the parallel of a Roman Senator. Most people, and this is proven by posts in the CVRIA and SYMPOSIVM forums, take the classification of Citizen as a substantiated political body with a grain of salt. No one is afraid of you, you're mistaking shock at how anyone could possibly be so adamant about a terrible idea, with shock associated with fear. And for the (hundredth, thousandth, billionth?) time, Citizens are subject to their rulings in the exact same way as any other member of the site, so they have no motivation to vote in a way that differs from any other member of the site.

    Quote Originally Posted by attilavolciak07 View Post
    • Morale among the Plebs would blossom


    If a council is awarded for all Plebs, all Plebs shall be happy. If you were given a whole new right, would you enjoy it? Of course you would. The Plebeian Council would be a place where we Plebs can discuss the forum, propose ideas and hear opinions. If people have a place where they can vent, they get a huge deal off their chest and feel happy afterwards or fulfilled. There are many Plebs out there, 40,000 in fact, and when someone proposes something in this council, it will get discussed and listened to. A proposed idea could gain support from other Plebs. If people have other people behind them or next to them, they feel happy, this council would boost morale among the Plebs. What if these people say "My school or job intervenes in my life, I can't spend a ton of time here, so my chances for Citizenship are twisted because I can't spend all my time or just chip in here and there". This Plebeian council would be a way for the people like this to express themselves and have people listen.
    Now, many Citizens have told me that the "Questions and Sugestions" forum could fulfill this purpose. I respond to that by saying no. In the 'Q&S', the idea could be a good one but if your idea does not suffice to what the Citizens think is good, then it is denied. Your idea won't live through the next day. In a Plebeian council, everyone can present an idea, everyone will have their idea heard, everyone will tell what they think. Your idea may become popular. Maybe this idea could become a 'revolution' of sorts. Maybe it later get's accepted. This means that if this person was told "no", he would give up, he wouldn't pursue, with the Pleb council, we need change and we need more ideas, for every person has a great idea in them. An idea that will be decided by some 100 people who claim to be 'higher' than you on some internet forum.
    This is obviously untrue. If there was a Council for Plebeians, I would most certainly be unhappy, because it means there could be measures passed by people who I have absolutely no faith in their ability to make decisions, proven by the fact they aren't citizens. As technical staff, I'm not a Citizen, I can't post in any of the Citizen areas, and since I'm not a Moderator, I can't weigh in on Hex votes either, so don't let the badge fool you. Yet I know for a fact that there is no need for any further measures than the Q&S, or the ability to PM a Citizen, for any suggestions I might have to be considered.

    You also seem to think there's some large degree of censorship applied to the Q&S, but this is clearly not the case. Your own idea for a Plebeian Council proves this, because despite the fact that the majority of people who weighed in on the matter thought it was a bad idea, including a large percentile of the citizens and staff who commented, the thread was allowed to remain open and continue discussion. The thread was only closed when it veered towards off-topic and flame posts, and had outlived its usefulness, something which applies to even a grand idea, since it's a forum-wide rule. And again, there is nothing about a Council forum, that would have it see any more participation than a Q&S forum, so you still have the very small percentile of non-Citizen users who care about site politics, being the only ones weighing in on matters.

    Quote Originally Posted by attilavolciak07 View Post
    • Claims that the idea would defeat the purpose of Citizenship
    First of all, this would not mean elected officials to represent the Plebs, because in turn, it would mean we are being hypocritical to our own idea. Of course, to maintain order, there would be a speaker of the house, just to announce new ideas and all that fun stuff. This person would not gain a badge, he would have some responsibilities though, but he would basically be chosen by the people and for the people. The Citizens aren't elected by the people or even accepted by the people. The Citizens are in their own little world by doing this, bascially creating a whole new society on their own and expanding the influence over my class.
    And second of all, what is so great about being a Citizen, a badge, you get to change your post count rank, you get a say in how TWC is run, no matter how small. The Plebeian council gives a slice to each and every Pleb out there, each Pleb can propose an idea, each one will get heard, this idea could rise, and become a 'rule' or new addition to the site. Now I don't see how giving the people a say can jeopardize the Citizens.
    The Plebeian Council does not do anything the Q&S already doesn't. The only difference, is there's the illusion of tolerance, based on the disillusionment of those in favor of the idea, that somehow the Q&S is ripe with intolerance, when in fact it is not. You're essentially proposing that there be a Questions and Suggestions forum, regardless of how futilely you seem to dispute the resemblance of the two, as no point has been offered that is valid in describing the Q&S, or that doesn't also apply to it, besides that of a "Speaker of the House", which is a shallow oligarchic implementation anyways.

    The Citizens aren't elected by the people because the site isn't owned by the people. A real government is owned by the people because they pay the taxes to fund the government's efforts to perform its duty under the social contract. Ian is therefore every person in the Country of TWC, since he's the funding of the TWC, and he votes in his cabinet members, and maintains the previously existing legislative body, whilst giving them free reign over their membership. And this is where comparisons end, because TWC is not a country, you are not a legal citizen of the country of TWC, and TWC is not bound by the will of those it represents, even though in benevolence, the site owners allow some control.

    I find it quite funny how much squirming has happened since the original idea. At first there was injustice, and there were elcted officials with a vote in the Curia. But no, that was a bad idea. So then there was just injustice and a Council without any particular implications to remedy this injustice. But still, a bad idea. Now there's a Council which doesn't vary much at all from the Q&S besides the notion of tolerance, which is nothing more than a notion which can't be used as a platform, and the existence of an oligarchical "Speaker" position. When this is deemed a bad idea, will we lose the speaker and the notion, and then we can go into the Admin CP and rename the Q&S to "Concilium Plebis" and change nothing else and Voila!



    Cheers,
    Augustus

  3. #3
    Captain Blackadder's Avatar A bastion of sanity
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    Default Re: A Plebeian Manifesto-Part 1- Morale and Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by attilavolciak07 View Post

    • Morale among the Plebs would blossom

    If a council is awarded for all Plebs, all Plebs shall be happy. If you were given a whole new right, would you enjoy it? Of course you would. The Plebeian Council would be a place where we Plebs can discuss the forum, propose ideas and hear opinions. If people have a place where they can vent, they get a huge deal off their chest and feel happy afterwards or fulfilled. There are many Plebs out there, 40,000 in fact, and when someone proposes something in this council, it will get discussed and listened to. A proposed idea could gain support from other Plebs. If people have other people behind them or next to them, they feel happy, this council would boost morale among the Plebs. What if these people say "My school or job intervenes in my life, I can't spend a ton of time here, so my chances for Citizenship are twisted because I can't spend all my time or just chip in here and there". This Plebeian council would be a way for the people like this to express themselves and have people listen.
    Now, many Citizens have told me that the "Questions and Sugestions" forum could fulfill this purpose. I respond to that by saying no. In the 'Q&S', the idea could be a good one but if your idea does not suffice to what the Citizens think is good, then it is denied. Your idea won't live through the next day. In a Plebeian council, everyone can present an idea, everyone will have their idea heard, everyone will tell what they think. Your idea may become popular. Maybe this idea could become a 'revolution' of sorts. Maybe it later get's accepted. This means that if this person was told "no", he would give up, he wouldn't pursue, with the Pleb council, we need change and we need more ideas, for every person has a great idea in them. An idea that will be decided by some 100 people who claim to be 'higher' than you on some internet forum.

    • Claims that the idea would defeat the purpose of Citizenship

    First of all, this would not mean elected officials to represent the Plebs, because in turn, it would mean we are being hypocritical to our own idea. Of course, to maintain order, there would be a speaker of the house, just to announce new ideas and all that fun stuff. This person would not gain a badge, he would have some responsibilities though, but he would basically be chosen by the people and for the people. The Citizens aren't elected by the people or even accepted by the people. The Citizens are in their own little world by doing this, bascially creating a whole new society on their own and expanding the influence over my class.
    And second of all, what is so great about being a Citizen, a badge, you get to change your post count rank, you get a say in how TWC is run, no matter how small. The Plebeian council gives a slice to each and every Pleb out there, each Pleb can propose an idea, each one will get heard, this idea could rise, and become a 'rule' or new addition to the site. Now I don't see how giving the people a say can jeopardize the Citizens.
    Firstly please remove all plebians you do not speak for me and you do not speak for all plebians do not potray this as a plebian vs citizen affair as this is not the case. As a manifesto this is a poor one quite frankly too overwrought with comparisons that do not make sense. Now as to content this is a nothing idea everything that you have said is allready covered by the suggestion section of the site just because we are plebians does not mean that we do not have a say I do recall that many decisions that truely affected the entire community were put in the suggestions section for all to comment on. Citizens have more of a say because they have been here long enough to truely know the site and what is best for it something that someone who has been here a mounth can never hope to do.
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  4. #4

    Default Re: A Plebeian Manifesto-Part 1- Morale and Citizenship

    It is not any wonder why your posts never carry any weight. You even go so far, in an obscure area, as to post that you don't want to discuss your pretentious claims
    Because it will get closed, so why discuss it.
    You can always PM me.

    they have no motivation to vote in a way that differs from any other member of the site.
    Not true. They will vote for what they think, not other members. And what they think could differ from others.

    I would most certainly be unhappy, because it means there could be measures passed by people who I have absolutely no faith in their ability to make decisions
    You would be unhappy? Your not a Pleb, read my work for your answer to that.
    And for the second part of the paragraph, did you even read my work? If so you would know the answer instead of jumping at one sentence you don't like or one sentence you could insult.

    so you still have the very small percentile of non-Citizen users who care about site politics, being the only ones weighing in on matters.
    Sigh. As I tell all of you, you have to wait to gain popularity. My idea wasn't wrapped with hundreds of supporters the minute I said it. We will continue to grow, we are inviting new members and we have around 60 members and even more supporters (including citizens).

    "Speaker of the House", which is a shallow oligarchic implementation anyways.
    I'd really appreciate it if you read what I say.

    I find it quite funny how much squirming has happened since the original idea. At first there was injustice, and there were elcted officials with a vote in the Curia. But no, that was a bad idea. So then there was just injustice and a Council without any particular implications to remedy this injustice. But still, a bad idea. Now there's a Council which doesn't vary much at all from the Q&S besides the notion of tolerance, which is nothing more than a notion which can't be used as a platform, and the existence of an oligarchical "Speaker" position. When this is deemed a bad idea, will we lose the speaker and the notion, and then we can go into the Admin CP and rename the Q&S to "Concilium Plebis" and change nothing else and Voila!
    I am really annoyed you didn't read it.

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