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Thread: Greatest General Ever [The Noble Lord vs Carl von Dobeln] {fini}

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    Default Greatest General Ever [The Noble Lord vs Carl von Dobeln] {fini}

    Alexander Suvorov was the greatest general ever because he was never defeated. Like Alexander the great.
    Both of them have unbroken record of victory after victory.
    If you measure greatness, then look at how good the general is. Suvorov called his simple soldiers "brother" and ate and slept in their quarters. The visiting members of Russian aristocracy were horrified and stunned by his behavior towards his men.
    He won against too many enemies on too many different battlefields.
    And never lost a single battle!!!

    ----

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    Default Re: Greates general ever:The Noble Lord vs. Carl von Dobeln

    You should change it to Gustavus and Napoleon VS Suvorov

    Suvorov never Had a Great victory such as Napoleons Austerlitz, Hannibals Cannae or Gustavus Breitenfeld and Rain.

    Suvorov Doesn't have the Great Heritage that Gustavus Hannibal Alexander and Napoleon have

    Gustavus reformed his army like few commanders did throughout history. His altering of his army's weapons, his use of combined arms in tactics, and the efficiency and discipline he instilled in his army, modernized the art of war. If you consider how wars were fought before his time then you'll appreciate the improvements Gustavus made. Gustavus was the first truly great commander to emerge since the death of Julius Caesar in that he reintroduced the art of war once again on the global stage. And his victories on the battlefield proved the foresight and efficiency of his innovations. Not even Napoleon upgraded military science the way Gustavus did.

    a reason why Suvorov will never be ranked among the greatest is because he never faced the scale of challenge men like Hannibal or Napoleon did.

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    Default Re: Greates general ever:The Noble Lord vs. Carl von Dobeln

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Von Döbeln View Post
    Suvorov never Had a Great victory such as Napoleons Austerlitz, Hannibals Cannae or Gustavus Breitenfeld and Rain
    Well, Suvorov had:

    1. Battle of Krakow 1768
    2. Battle of Kinburn 1787
    3. Battle of Ochakov 1787
    4. Battle of Foscani 1788
    5. Battle of Rimnik 1788
    6. Battle of Ismail 1790
    7. Battle of Macijelowice 1794
    8. Battle of Warsaw 1794
    9. Battle of Prague 1795
    10. Battle of Cassano d'Adda 1799
    11. Battle of Trebbia 1799
    12. Battle of Novi 1799
    13. Crossing of the Alps 1799
    14. Battle of Mainshtat 1799

    And they were all victories. Not a single defeat!!!

    Suvorov Doesn't have the Great Heritage that Gustavus Hannibal Alexander and Napoleon have
    Just being the one of the few commanders in history that never lost a battle and men who was responsible for Russian military supremacy in second half of 1700s.

    Gustavus reformed his army like few commanders did throughout history.
    He did reformed the art of war, but all his innovations did not helped him to achieve the record of unbroken victories like Alexander and Suvorov did.

    a reason why Suvorov will never be ranked among the greatest is because he never faced the scale of challenge men like Hannibal or Napoleon did.
    Suvorov's crossing of the Italian and Swiss Alps was magnificent undertaking that is still studied at military academies around the world. Next to Hannibal's crossing of the Alps and Alexander's invasion of Persia.
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    Default Re: Greates general ever:The Noble Lord vs. Carl von Dobeln

    1. Battle of Krakow 1768
    2. Battle of Kinburn 1787
    3. Battle of Ochakov 1787
    4. Battle of Foscani 1788
    5. Battle of Rimnik 1788
    6. Battle of Ismail 1790
    7. Battle of Macijelowice 1794
    8. Battle of Warsaw 1794
    9. Battle of Prague 1795
    10. Battle of Cassano d'Adda 1799
    11. Battle of Trebbia 1799
    12. Battle of Novi 1799
    13. Crossing of the Alps 1799
    14. Battle of Mainshtat 1799
    Nothing comparable to Breitenfeld Cannae and Austerlitz


    Suvorov's crossing of the Italian and Swiss Alps was magnificent undertaking that is still studied at military academies around the world. Next to Hannibal's crossing of the Alps and Alexander's invasion of Persia.
    Well as you say, not comparable To hannibals italian campaign.

    And He never faced challanges such as Hannibal and napoleon did.
    Gustavus was the first truly great commander to emerge since the death of Julius Caesar in that he reintroduced the art of war once again on the global stage

    Always the pre WW list comes down to the big five : Hannibal , Alexander, Napoleon, Ceasar and Gustavus.
    About Suvorov:
    He didnot lead campaigns which changed the political equations of his continent drastically. It is important to realize here that he was not altogether given the opportunity for the same. He never had the compulsion that Napoleon had or the compulsion that Napoleon generated in contemporary generals (Wellington, Blucher). Who knows what would have happened if Suvorov at his prime had to face Napoleon in a battle for survival of his country.
    The major point here is that if we observe carefully ,except Alexander, all the top generals were fighting it out in a war for survival/grand emergence of their respective countries. Gustavus is an exception, to some extent ,but only to some extent.
    My point here is that unless the war is of critical strategic importance, it is difficult for one to make the cut as the greatest general.
    Suvorov's strategic retreat is a masterpiece no doubt, but he was plane unfortunate that a decade after his death , warfare was changed forever and far more significant battles were being fought by exceptionally competent and brilliant generals. We would never know what he would have done under that conditions.
    Except his strategic retreat which was a masterpiece, there is not much lasting contribution from him , towards the way wars were fought subsequently. Austerlitz and Cannae stand out for the fascinating manouvers while Gaugemala for the tactical brilliance shown by the young Macedonian king. Suvorov misses out in terms of such everlasting battlefield/ grand strategic manouvers/manipulations.

    I would say its plain luck (or the lack of it). Circumstances force one to suit oneself to his immediate job at hand. Napoleon at Suvorov's place might not have achieved what the Brilliant Generalissimo did. Hannibal with sufficient resources might not have had to fight Cannae at all or might not have needed to do a double envelopment. He did because he needed to.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    One of Gustavus's Greatest Victories: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Rain

    The battle is however more interesting from a tactical point of view rather than from its outcome, as the elaborate plan of Gustavus Adolphus to catch the entire Imperial army by complex maneuvering was prevented when Tilly was mortally wounded in the battle, resulting in the early retreat of the Imperial army. The Swedish battle plan consisted of two major elements:
    1. A strong feint attack by a portion of the Swedish infantry with heavy artillery support against Tilly's strongly fortified center behind the river Lech. The intended effect was to attract the full attention of the Imperial army and its reserve. The Swedish force succeeded in establishing and fortifying its position on a small island or peninsula close to the Imperial side of the river. From this position, it was able to repel a series of fierce Imperial counterattacks despite being outnumbered.
    2. As the Imperial army got tied up in desperate attempts to eliminate the Swedish bridgehead, the Swedish cavalry with no opposition or attention from the enemy was able to cross the river 10 km south of the Imperial left wing. From this position they intended to outflank the entire Imperial army and thus catch it in a position with the river and the Swedish infantry at its front and the Swedish cavalry in its rear and on its flanks.
    When Tilly was mortally wounded, the discipline of the Imperial army quickly dissolved and the army withdrew before the arrival of the Swedish cavalry. Thus, Tilly's death possibly saved his army from a complete defeat. Nonetheless, both armies suffered considerable losses (3,000 on the Imperial side, 2,000 on the Swedish), mostly due to frontal attacks and counterattacks against fortified positions with strong natural defenses.
    The battle of Lech proves more than the Battle of Breitenfeld the innovation of Gustavus Adolphus' tactical imagination. His daring frontal attack in combination with the deployment of a large part of his army for the flanking movement has similarities with the tactics of the Duke of Marlborough at the battlefield of Blenheim (situated in the very neighborhood of Rain) or of Frederick the Great at Leuthen. The disciple of Gustavus Adolphus, Johan Banér, also employed a similar battle plan four years later in the battle of Wittstock."
    Last edited by Carl von Döbeln; September 04, 2008 at 06:09 AM.

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    Default Re: Greates general ever:The Noble Lord vs. Carl von Dobeln

    Nothing comparable to Breitenfeld Cannae and Austerlitz
    Actually those victories against Ottoman empire started their decline and open the eastern question, plus his victories in Poland its subsequent disappearance from the map caused the power balance in Europe to be changed and opened the new potential battlefield of contest between Russia and Prussia/Germany which eventually ended in First and Second world war between the two countries.

    Well as you say, not comparable To hannibals italian campaign.
    As I said, his crossing of the Alps was next ot Hannibal's. And both of them are studied at the military academies all over the world.

    And He never faced challanges such as Hannibal and napoleon did.
    He did, and he had to face often hostile Emperors that were above him. In front of him enemies, above him Emperors. It was very hard for him.

    And of course that Gustavus Adolphus was great general, nobody is denying that. But for all the reasons that I mentioned in Generals thread and in this thread, I think that Suvorov was better.
    Then again, you give good points too.

    I think that at the end we will have to agree to disagree .
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    Default Re: Greates general ever:The Noble Lord vs. Carl von Dobeln

    Actually those victories against Ottoman empire started their decline and open the eastern question, plus his victories in Poland its subsequent disappearance from the map caused the power balance in Europe to be changed and opened the new potential battlefield of contest between Russia and Prussia/Germany which eventually ended in First and Second world war between the two countries.
    He has many victories yes, but not a single Great one.
    As I said, his crossing of the Alps was next ot Hannibal's. And both of them are studied at the military academies all over the world.
    Hehe
    I think that They Mostly Teach about hannibals crossing.

    He did, and he had to face often hostile Emperors that were above him. In front of him enemies, above him Emperors. It was very hard for him.

    And of course that Gustavus Adolphus was great general, nobody is denying that. But for all the reasons that I mentioned in Generals thread and in this thread, I think that Suvorov was better.
    Then again, you give good points too.

    I think that at the end we will have to agree to disagree
    Suvorov never had a Great battle, And He doesn't have the heritage that Gustavus and Hannibal have.

    Suvorov isn't amongst the Greatest,He is great, due to his many victories, But The "great 5" Is amongst the greatest due to their Outstanding victories and their everlasting heritage.

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    Default Re: Greates general ever:The Noble Lord vs. Carl von Dobeln

    Ali, Get over it, Suleiman wasn't a good general.

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    Default Re: Greates general ever:The Noble Lord vs. Carl von Dobeln

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Von Döbeln View Post
    He has many victories yes, but not a single Great one.
    Actually, lots of his victories are considered to be great. I am not going to repeat all of them again but when you talk about single great one you can choose easily from the pile.

    Battle of Rimnik took place on September 22, 1789 and in just few hours Suvorov's 24.000 soldiers defeated Ottoman force of more then 110.000 and broke the Ottoman rule of Walachia. That was the beginning of the end for the Ottomans and they were on the run.
    The battle itself was notable because Suvorv's men attacked the Turks after spending previous night marching and then having no rest at all. The great Suvorov was with them as well and it was there that he pioneered tactic of moving squares against Ottoman cavalry which numbered in tens of thousands. For his victory he was awarded title of Count of Rimnik. That is just one of his great battles.

    I think that They Mostly Teach about hannibals crossing.
    Actually, they tach both crossings. On West Point, Sandhurst, and many military academies in Europe and America they teach crossings of Hannibal and Suvorov as well. They are both remarkable because they were done in similar circumstances and they are 1.500 apart from each other.

    The "great 5" Is amongst the greatest due to their Outstanding victories and their everlasting heritage.
    Well, its a pretty good heritage of never been defeated in a battle.
    Never, the only two that can claim that are Alexander the Great and Suvorov.

    Ali, Get over it, Suleiman wasn't a good general.
    I agree, he was good Sultan and administrator. But not good general.


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    Default Re: Greates general ever:The Noble Lord vs. Carl von Dobeln

    Well, its a pretty good heritage of never been defeated in a battle.
    You can't call it an Heritage, Bot Gustavus And Alexander changed the world.

    Suvorov didn't do that on a large scale.

    Read this, It's written by the Great Spartan JKM

    Sweden indeed had a standing army by the mid 1620s, but its population was about an eighth of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in 1620 (1.25 million people in Sweden, over 10 million in the latter). Among other things, Gustavus gave war a new look by not altering the tactical doctrine any arm (or even two), but by synthesizing existing practices, improving upon them (Mauritz van Nassau and Henri IV, for example), and forging a nationally conscripted army of combined arms, and drilled with precision under his assiduous guidance. Whether his 'new' cuirassiers galloped or sped at a trot (they perhaps galloped then trotted upon impact, as formation is more easily maintained at a trot), they achieved success when charging home, firing their pistols in a tight formation with cold steel, supported by infantry fire. In essence, they were often an effective battering ram assaulting an already softened foe from supporting firepower. Swedish discipline became exemplary, religious duties strictly observed, and crime virtually non-existent. Gustavus Adolphus' actions during his involvement of the Thirty Years War greatly influenced the political and religious balance of power in most of Europe at this time.

    Before 1626, Gustavus' army was still basically, as he put it,

    "My troops are poor Swedish and Finnish peasant followers, it's true, rude and ill-dressed; but they smile hard and they shall soon have better clothes."

    Gustavus' army became a paradigm of one element from the classic military Byzantine manual, the Strategikon, written, according to tradition, by the emperor-general Flavius Maurikios Tiberius,

    "Constant drill is of the greatest value to the soldier."

    Gustavus formed military tactics centered around increased firepower, including mobile field artillery. His army was in peak form by 1631, and his system of cavalry charges, influenced by the Poles, initiated with pistol fire, integrated with infantry (pike and shot) and field artillery, supporting each other in self-sustaining combat groups, was the first time this had ever been seen in modern warfare. Much like Philip II of Macedon and Chinggis Khan in their day, Gustavus was arguably the greatest developer of a balanced army for his time. But perhaps more than any other great commander of history, his reforms touched on every area of military science, including the administrative and logistic branches.

    But a topic of Gustavus' reforms must include the influence impressed upon him by the great Maurice of Nassau: the brilliant Dutch innovator and his staff created a military system of drill to train officers and soldiers, and began to move away from the dense column of the omnipotent tercio, developing a more extended and elastic formation. He equipped his cavalry with pistols and began to concentrate artillery pieces in batteries. Moreover, Maurice put supply, training, and pay on a regular basis. The tercio, an innovation for its time, was restructured to be smaller after the Battle of Rocroi in 1643, in which the stout tercios were blasted away by the maneuverability and superior firepower of Louis II de Bourbon (the Great Conde). But it was Maurice at Nieuwpoort (1600), then Gustavus at Breitenfeld (1631), who presaged that doom. Basically, Gustavus refined what Maurice did to a broader scale.

    But things take time, and not without trial and error; Amrogio Spinola, another brilliant leader of this age, reversed this innovative trend for a while against the Dutch, and the Swedes, sans Gustavus, suffered a defeat at Nordlingen in 1634 against an army with the Spanish tercio on hand. But Johan Baner won victories thereafter.

    The Swedish disasters at the hands of the Poles/Lithuanians at Kircholm (modern Salaspils, about twelve miles SE of Riga) and Klushino (Kluszyn) were in the past, and Gustavus would not let that happen again; no Swedish force would ever again be fooled by a feint to pull them out of a strong position (at least under him); his earthworks were not to 'hide' behind, in my opinion, but to provide security to fall back on if things went awry. This was sound war-making. It is opined by some that he waltzed into the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth while their backs were turned, and easily captured towns to set up his entrenchments. But I am inclined to think the Baltic ports of Pilawa (Pilau) and Konigsberg (modern Kaliningrad) could not have been vulnerable to the degree it was child's play for the Swedes to take them, and there was also much diplomacy involved. They probably were defended by the trace italienne system. The town of Zamosc, for example, though further to the SE, saw the construction of new walls and seven bastions by 1602. But it seems quite accurate the Swedish onslaught in the 1620s initially made good progress because of an overall vulnerable scenario of the enemy.

    Dr. Geoffrey Parker, an expert on the Thirty Years War, wrote in his The Military Revolution, Pg 37,

    "...Several outraged books and pamphlets were promptly written by Polish propagandists, excoriating the invaders for their 'unchivalrous deceit' in raising ramparts around their camps 'as though they needed a grave-digger's courage to conceal themselves', and deploring their painstaking siege techniques as 'Kreta robota (mole's work)'. But, mole's work or not, Crown Prince Wladislaw was immediately dispatched to the Netherlands to learn about these deceitful tactics at first hand. he was followed by Polish engineers, such as Adam Freitag who, in 1631, published at Leiden an international classic on developments in military fortification..."

    This is from Richard Brzezinski, an authority on this chapter of history, who wrote a book on the Polish Hussars (possible red flag: Osprey Publishing),

    "...if you take an UNBIASED (as in non-patriotic) view of Polish-Swedish actions from 1622 onwards through to the Great Northern War they are characterised by a consistent reluctance of the Poles to charge when the Swedish cavalry is deployed in formal battle-order backed by their infantry and artillery firepower. Take away the fire support, and the hussars are far less hesistant, and generally victorious..."

    That may not be completely true, as some husaria did penetrate Swedish musketry formations at the battle of Mitawa (Mitau, modern Jelgava) in 1622, and again at Gorzno (Gurzno) in 1629 - but only initially; the threats were quickly closed. Excellent details are provided by experts on Zagloba's Tavern. Radoslaw Sikora, who denounces Brzezinski, and is a prime source for this topic, is working to right what he thinks are wrongs etc. He provides figures from the Polish army register, and Daniel Staberg, the Swedish expert, gives figures from some battle draws by Gustavus himself. But Sikora writes something peculiar, on the topic of the Polish husaria fighting Swedish regiments of musketeers,

    "...Unfortunately I noticed that this selective and partial treatment of primary sources appear in Richard Brzezinski's work quite often. It is most apparent in the quoted descriptions of the hussaria fighting against the Swedish army (Kokenhausen, Mitawa/Mitau or Tczew/Dirschau). Anyone who knows what truly happened there grabs his head when reading how these battles are used to support false thesis of alleged considerable efficiency of firearms of the Swedish cavalry against the husaria."

    What truly happened? Well, I feel one can admire something without it being a vice of 'partiality'. The battle of Mitawa was fought before Gustavus' efficient reforms took significant effect. Poland ultimately lost this war (I would say more on a political than military scale), and the husaria never defeated Gustavus (his tactical rebuff at Trzciana, in which he counter-attacked twice to protect his infantry, notwithstanding). Koknese was a Swedish victory, and Gustavus clearly overcame the husaria at Gniew (Mewe) and Tczew (Dirschau), via method. Sikora's opinion as to why the Sejm (Polish diet) acquiesced to favorable terms for Sweden in 1629, if they were not losing the military aspect of this war (as some Polish apologists believe) - one in which he compares the feeling of the people of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth to that of the American people in regards to Vietnam (late 1960s/early 1970s) is incredulous. Perhaps I am misconstruing him, but Polish soldiers were fighting in their own land against an invader. I am the last poster who wishes to insult people, and Mr. Sikora, clearly a civil and intelligent man, is invaluable for providing much trivia for this period.

    [b]From a political standpoint, the death of Gustavus amid the fog at Lutzen, a month before his 38th birthday, was a disaster. Looking back, perhaps we can blame him for that element of his leadership of heroic self-indulgence, and he was getting a little impetuous, it seems. But his death might have removed the one man who seemingly was capable of imposing an end to the fighting. But that must be based on private convictions over any solid evidence; he may have come too late. Instead, the Thirty Years War dragged on for sixteen more years, witnessing hellish circumstances of disorganized and impoverished conditions. As the Dutch philosopher Hugo Grotius, who paid much attention to the concept of 'humane' warfare, tells us,

    "...I saw prevailing throughout Europe a licence in making war of which even barbarous nations would have been ashamed..."

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    Default Re: Greates general ever:The Noble Lord vs. Carl von Dobeln

    that Suvorov was indeed great General and leader
    I have not said anything else, Although he was not amongst the Greatest.

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    Default Re: Greates general ever:The Noble Lord vs. Carl von Dobeln

    I read the last post Carl and that piece that was written by Spartan JKM. Its very good and I agree totally that Gustavus Adolphus was great general and military innovator in many ways. However, when it comes to greatness, I have to disagree with you and I have to point out that Gustavus Adolphus was King and general so he didn't have to answer to nobody. While Suvorov had to juggle between his often weird and tyrannical Czars and his enemies on the battlefield.
    And thats one more factor that makes him great, because your character and capabilities are truly shown when you are facing great adversity, and he often did. Serving those rulers and performing brilliantly on the battlefield is magnificent feat in itself!


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    Default Re: Greates general ever:The Noble Lord vs. Carl von Dobeln

    Serving those rulers and performing brilliantly on the battlefield is magnificent feat in itself!
    Did Suvorov Participate in the battles Like Gustavus Did?
    I think not.
    Gustavus Was Wounded Several times..And he got killed on the battlefield

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    Default Re: Greates general ever:The Noble Lord vs. Carl von Dobeln

    they did fight some great battles, but their abilities are to be judged by other things as well. what other qualities they two had????

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    Default Re: Greates general ever:The Noble Lord vs. Carl von Dobeln

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Von Döbeln View Post
    Did Suvorov Participate in the battles Like Gustavus Did?
    I think not.
    Gustavus Was Wounded Several times..And he got killed on the battlefield
    Yes he did, in one battle he was almost killed by Turkish Janissary who was about to finish old general but it was Russian Hussar who came to the aid of general and slashed the Turk. Suvorov ended up being wounded. He was wounded few more times.
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    Default Re: Greates general ever:The Noble Lord vs. Carl von Dobeln

    Still...Not as Alexander and Gustavus...They Fought in the middle of the battle.

    Gustavus Was wounded several times becuase of his "Alexandrian Style"

    They called him the "Protestant alexander"

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    Default Re: Greates general ever:The Noble Lord vs. Carl von Dobeln

    I think that Suvorov Is Comparable to Charles XII....Same charisma and Tactical brilliance.

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    Default Re: Greates general ever:The Noble Lord vs. Carl von Dobeln

    Excellent point Carl, in a way them two were similar in some ways.
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    Default

    Yes, But both Charles and Suvorov are not comparable to Gustavus, Hannibal, Alexander or Napoleon.

    Still, We will have to agree on disagreeing

    You can now close this thread.
    Last edited by Senno; November 21, 2008 at 06:36 PM. Reason: Merged double post.

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    Default Re: Greatest general ever:The Noble Lord vs. Carl von Dobeln

    Thread closed at Carl Von Dobeln's request.

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