Dune - Total War [concept stage; hiring]

[Ketzerfreund]

[Updated according to the info gathered about E:TW modding since release so far]

Hiring:
- Modellers: Units, buildings, carry-alls and ornithopters("ships") design
- Texturers: Water textures. Make them different shades of brown. Make water spray and spume look like sand moving in the wind.
- Artists: Concept art. Inspired by knowledge of the books first, the Lynch movie and the series second, the games released so far (Cryo...) tertiary.


Dune - Total War


The title says it all.
Since some people are vividly discussing a Star Wars mod, why not? In Dune there's at least still (or rather again?) melee combat.
For those who haven't read Frank Herbert's books nor have seen David Lynch's movie or even never heard of "Dune": Wikipedia holds huge amounts of info about it.

There is no sea on Arrakis, but the deep desert areas could be used as that.
The layout of the campaign map is available in great detail . You can clearly see what deep desert areas would constitute "water" in this scenario:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Fremen sandworm riders and low-altitude carry-alls (a kind of huge airship; from "ship of the line" to "galleons, fluyts") and ornithopters (small low-altitude aircraft using a mechanical and wind-dependent wing-beat engine; from "briggs" to "galleys") can duke it out there on top of eternal sandstorms.


Small Colonies can be used for setting up Spice harvesting and processing bases.
The info we all have learnt about E:TW's trade mechanics so far (blocking "sea" lanes etc.) are very useful here. All factions will be able to hinder each other from making big bucks from spice production.


Factions:

Major Factions:

House Atreides:
Major House. Begins smallish, comes with a big amount of saved money, however. Noble, righteous, just.
Beginning Diplomacy:
At war with: Vlad. Harkonnen and Rabban, later, after a certain event, Corrino/Imperial House.
trade agreement with: Smugglers, one or two Fremen tribes, CHOAM.
Units:
"civilians with muskets": Standard militia. Simple projectile weapons a.k.a. guns.
"Militia": Local garrison forces, low movement points.
"Grenadiers/Light inf."; Field infantry. Officers could be dressed like Patrick Steward to the left of the pic:

"Elite infantry": Well, elite. Also the generals' units will be infantry.
Here's a pic showing how generals and royalty are dressed in House Atreides:

This depiction in Lynch's movie is actually pretty accurate. They are wearing buffalo pelt around their shoulders in remembrance to an heir of Duke Leto who killed one single-handedly.
Agents:
"Gentlemen": Representants of minor houses and the Landsraad; can duel and spy, but not sabotage and assassinate. Medium spawn count.
"rakes": Mentats. "Thufir Hawat" for Atreides. Have high counter-espionage skills.
Low spawn count.

House Harkonnen:
Major House. Small and heavily fortified regions. Brutal. Always keeps a strong eye on Rabban's Administration.
Beginning Diplomacy:
At war with: Atreides, Fremen, allied to House Corrino. They have no hope of gaining trading agreements with the Fremen and Smugglers.
Trade agreement with: Rabban's Admin., CHOAM, Corrino.
Grants unlimited mil. access to: Corrino
Units:
"civilians with muskets": Standard militia. Simple projectile weapons a.k.a. guns. Slaves and penal conscripts. Massive cannon fodder..
"Militia": Local garrison forces, low movement. Conscripts. Low morale.
"Grenadiers/Light inf.": Field infantry. Mediocre.
"Line Infantry": Field Infantry; massive bulks. These are heavy barriers. Officers have metal shoulder plates like in the series.
"Elite infantry": The generals' units will be infantry.
Harkonnen royalty in bad shape:


Agents:
"Gentlemen": Representants of minor houses; "Feyd Rautha" and "Count Fenring" for Harkonnen; can duel and spy, but not sabotage and assassinate. Medium spawn count. Feyd Rautha:

"rakes": Mentats. "Pieter de Vries" for Harkonnen. Have high counter-espionage skills.
Low spawn count.

Rabban's Administration:
Widespread on the map, especially among the continental settlements, but prone to rebellions. Greedy, brutal, loves exterminating or at least sacking settlements after having conquered them. Their area contain several settler subcultures that may revolt and emerge to a Minor House.
Rabban tries to defend the spice harvesting colonies against both Atreides and Fremen.
Beginning Diplomacy:
Protectorate to: House Harkonnen
At war with: Atreides, Fremen. They have no hope of gaining trading agreements with the Fremen and Smugglers.
Trade agreement with: Harkonnen, CHOAM, Corrino.
Grants unlimited mil. access to: Corrino

House Corrino -> Emperor Shaddam IV.:
Major House. The Imperial House. Liege to Harkonnen and Atreides. A major faction on Arrakis, if, however, only in possession of a few economically relevant regions besides one heavy fortified region and some abandoned bio-labs; they ought to be absolutely undefended or only a safe haven for criminals or whatever. Possesses the best military unit - the Sardaukar.
Units:
Imperial Units:
"Line Infantry": Sardaukar Lines. Heavy but still not slow, good accuracy
"Grenadiers/Light Infantry": Sardaukar Elite. And I mean it.
House Corrino Units:
"civilians with muskets": Standard militia. Simple projectile weapons a.k.a. guns; elite squads: Imperial House Guards, Corrino House Guards
"Militia": Inspection and Police Forces. Large movement rate (ancillary: "ornithopter squad"). Long visibility range.
"Gentlemen": Representants of the Royal House, Corrino family members, visitors from the Landsraad; "Liet Kynes" for Imperial House; can duel and spy, but not sabotage and assassinate. Medium spawn count.
"rakes": "Princess Irulan" for Imperial House. Have high counter-espionage skills.
Low spawn count.

Oh, and:
- NO Ordos!

Minor Factions:

Several Fremen tribes:
Some major but mainly minor factions, somewhat guerilla-like, based on the edges of the map and/or scattered over the whole map in isolated settlements; in sole possession of the most valuable trading commodity besides the Spice - water! (trading commodity in the sense of trading resources according to E:TW's trade mechanic); it should be hard to gain their trust (something the Harkonnen could never hope to achieve), but perfectly loyal allies once having gained it. Some tribes may set certain hopes into outsider factions, others may be completely xenophobic.
A Chrys Knife:

Units:
"armed civilians": Fremen people in different designs per faction:

"Light Infantry": Very elite. The "Fedaykin". General's unit. Wears still-suits under cloth and can hide in open desert.

The Smugglers:
Have only a handful of settlements or rather camps. Very secretive, but also in possession of assorted valuable trade resources. Gain their trust and along with that a trade agreement, and you'd have a good source of trade income. They have good spies.
The smugglers are logical enemies of CHOAM. If relations to the smugglers get better, relations to CHOAM plummet and vice versa.

Bene Tleilax:
All factions but the Fremen can recruit weird biological terrors as mercenaries from Tleilaxu regions and those adjacent to it.
They are in possession of very small regions all over the Northern Hemisphere; so many that they like to sell such very small regions with a single building on it: A building that spawns unique agent types for each House that possesses a Tleilaxu region.
Agents:
Note that these agent types, if spawned by the Bene Tleilax faction itself, are roaming the whole Northern Hemisphere! Beware!
"gentlemen": Ghouls. Very high spying abilities, above mediore duelling. "Duncan Idaho" for Arrakis or Smugglers.
"rakes": Face-dancers; high assassination ability.

Every major settlement not affiliated with either side:
Most of these and especially rebelling regions that have chased the Harkonnen out emerge as Minor Houses.

Bene Gesserit:
They are in possession of a little region from which they had sent their representatives to the Fremen for spreading their self-fulfilling prophecies. I'm not completely sure about a concrete use of them (maybe one-woman-units recruitable as mercs. who can be used like, for example, the druids in vanilla Rome through their mind-manipulating voice, but far more powerful; not at all able to defend against guns, so they are in need of protection), but destroying them would unleash the ultimate wrath of the Fremen (certain scripts come to mind; since the general populace of Arrakis is affiliated with the Fremen, independent settlements would let out a mighty roar; whoever destroys the Bene Gesserit on Arrakis would also have to cope with rebellions)! You need a good standing with them to be able to recruit their witches.

CHOAM:
Combine Honnete Ober Advancer Mercantiles; they possess several small regions scattered across the map near larger settlements and are the sole providers of certain trade resources. Having a trade agreement with them would help filling your treasury in case you have difficulties holding productive "Spice harvesting colonies".
They are officially under control of the Emperor, but practically every house holds shares of CHOAM. Everyone but the Fremen and Smugglers has trade agreements with them.

The Spacing Guild:
In possession of a little region as a presence on Arrakis. Not sure, yet, what they could be used for; they are, however, natural enemies of the Bene Gesserit. The better your relations to the Bene Gesserit, the worse your relations to the Guild and vice versa.


I think the concept of having these organisations as factions on the map, interacting politically with the majors, could make the game interesting.
I have a take on game depth and immersion in mind for this mod that would be quite different from your usual Total-War-campaign, which shall see it's purpose in campaign options two and three as outlined in the projected version history at the end of this post.
All organisations could maybe also work as mission-givers like the Pope in M2:TW and the Senate in R:TW.

Buildings:

- Under construction -

Not too much here, yet. Besides the usual barracks for locally recruited units, the Atreides, Harkonnen, Corrino and some of the organisations would have spaceports as buildings (which, however, shouldn't be able to be built in every region) for the recruitment of their faction specialties.
Mentat schools, an Ixian branch (portrayed rather secretive; the Ixians produce computerised high-tech which is illegal in the Empire), etc.


Projected version history:

0.0-0.9: Experiments, custom battle units, playable custom battles with factions and units; artwork; ui- and campaign textures.

1.0: Map complete; all "classic" warfare factions placed. Classic TW wargaming campaign in the Dune scenario. Canon characters tossed in, but no "plot" progression through scripting implemented. Major trade resource is spice; certain Fremen tribes have access to the even more valuable trade resource of water on the southern hemisphere; defeating those tribes give access to water (as - let me make that clear - a trade resource according to game mechanics! If these regions have access to "the sea a.k.a. water", they have a "trade port"); having a good enough relation to these Fremen tribes as a House for trade agreements at least gives you profits from imported water ("water tax")).

(1.1 - 2.9): Version numbering headroom for bugfixes and misc. improvements.

3.0: Another campaign choice introduced, which have the organisations placed including their special purposes as mentioned in the faction list, which needs a good AoR system together with sophisticated handling of diplomacy. A campaign including the gameplay mechanics that come with the origanisations should be offered as a seperate campaign, since the different relations the organisations have with each other also influence the relations different factions have with the player faction. This depends on whether the player leaves a certain organisation alone, offends or befriends them. This brings the setting closer in detail to the literary template.

(3.1 - 4.9): Version numbering headroom for bugfixes and misc. improvements.

5.0: An additional game mechanic introduced, and with it the third campaign choice. These game mechanics allow the player to play with the actual plotlines of the Dune books. It shall include several forking possibilities for the plot event chains from the books through an event system similar to the Paradox games (EU, HoI), the player's diplomatic choices, the outcomes of certain stand-alone scripted events (the Harkonnen's major attack on the Atreides where Leto dies, for example; in the game, Leto may die, or not. Things like that.) and even adventure game-like "use ancillary on character" mechanics (a general takes a settlement, gathers an ancillary (person or item) and passes it on to another general or the ruler etc. Example: Harkonnen conquer Arrakeen. General gets Yueh. General "gives" Yueh to Vladimir.)


Regards,
-Der Ketzerfreund.

[Roger the Shrubber]

I have heard of it before, but I don't know exactley what Dune is?

[eddy_purpus]

???? havent heard of dunes ? :S

[Ketzerfreund]

I've added the respective Wikipedia-link to my opening post. There's huge amounts of info on the scenario to be found there.

-Der Ketzerfreund.

[♔Sherlock♔]

Hey, is this related in anyway to Dune 2000 the PC game? Because that was wicked. That had spice in, and if I'm not mistaken House Atreides and House Harkonnen (sorry if I'm wrong )

[Ketzerfreund]

Yes, Westwood's "Dune II", "Dune 2000" and "Emperor - Battle For Dune" are based on Frank Herbert's books.
If you take another look at the faction list, you'll find I explicitly wrote that the "House Ordos" should not be included, as they were just added in by Westwood (I've heard the name was listed in the glossary on the last few pages of the first book, but this house does not play the slightest bit of a role on Dune a.k.a. Arrakis).

Of course, this mod would also not be completely canon, since only some remains of the Atreides' forces fought an extensive war against the Harkonnen under the lead of the Fremen (with Paul Atreides as their leader) in the original story. But I'd want the Atreides to be a faction.

To those that know the story: This mod would differ from the original story insofar, as it wouldn't have he same schemes of treachery happening. The Emperor giving the fiefdom of Arrakis to the Atreides in the course of a conspiracy would be true in this mod, but let's just say that Dr. Yueh's kidnapping of Duke Leto and some other stuff that crippled the Atreides that much failed.


Here are links to the IMDB's entries of the David Lynch movie (1984) and the mini-series (2000) - maybe more people know the story than can remember.


-Der Ketzerfreund.

[thePassenger]

Great idea, really likethe Dune series over most other scifi genre's.


Hope all goes well

[Randarkmaan]

One thing you could do is make the deep desert into ocean (only in technical, not graphical terms of course) only passable by riding sandworms (well, these would have to be certain ships, or some sort of "sandrider" script), and have some small spots of land (sietches), also only give the ability to ride sandworms to the Fremen (but perhaps include the possibility for those who gain their trust to learn this). It is possible that Empire total war includes different "water types", such as coastal and such, in which case you could have some parts of the desert, though only in the north, be passable only by mounting your troops in Ornithopters (probably better just for scouts though) and transports (but then you'd get some weird sea-battles), and have the desert to the south, be only passable by sandriders, effectively making the Fremen sietches of the south impossible to reach and explore, unless you somehow gain their trust, or manage to gather an astronomical sum to bribe the Spacing guild to explore and land there.

[mephistopholes]

there should be more than one Fremen faction, and I think the smugglers should be their own faction. You will have to make most factions victory conditions small in order to make it be any contest against the Fremen.

[Ketzerfreund]

One thing you could do is make the deep desert into ocean

Exactly.

(only in technical, not graphical terms of course)

We don't know that, yet.
At the moment I dare to dream:
- The water must have it's textures, which might be replaceable.
- Somewhere even the movement of the waves would have to be defined. One might be able to drastically slow wave movement, so they look like slowly wandering dunes in a sandstorm...
- Make battles there aerial battles. Let's change ports into airports/airbases. Over the wild desert, ornithopers can battle it out in the skies... Ships will move up and down in E:TW - imagine that with big aerial units, behaving like something in between an airplane and airship... huge wings moving slightly like large bird's wings...

One might also be able to increase transparency of the top level wave textures and colour them brown, so it would look like the ornithopters would move above dense sandstorms...

Concepts from the RTS "Dune II", Westwood (images link to a unit list):

Carryall; your usual transporting vessel; models of trade ships would also be modeled according to that.


Ornithopter. for this mod they'd be designed larger.



The Fremen wouldn't use such aircraft. They would use sandworms... Imagine the "backs" of sandworms rising slightly up to and above of that "sandstorm sea" with Fremen warriors on it's back firing with guns and bazookas at ornithopters looming above (later they would use those "voice modulators" they get in the course of the original story).

The Fremen would also be the only ones having access to the southern hemisphere, where their large water storages are; water is the Fremen's main currency. Only their regions have water as a trade resource, and it would generate enough income for the Fremen for acting relatively freely on the map.
Access to the southern hemisphere could be realised by using E:TW's system of several maps, between which you transfer by crossing certain spots at the edge of one such map. On the northern hemisphere, all those transfer points would be blocked by Fremen sietches (their form of settlement). You'd need to get hold of one such sietch to be able to find a way south.
If possible, use catastrophe scripts (think of the vulcan, floods and earthquakes of R:TW) for simulating certain really terrible sandstorms, under which ornithopters would suffer more than the sandworms...

Your idea of using the Guild for this, too, is great!
Seems like every organisation has an enemy counterpart now...

there should be more than one Fremen faction, and I think the smugglers should be their own faction. You will have to make most factions victory conditions small in order to make it be any contest against the Fremen.

Missions might be an integral part of the small factions' gameplay. Especially those organisations...
Yes, the Fremen could be divided into tribes... some may have conflicts among each other, some may be very aggressive to the Harkonnen while others sit by and watch...


Keep it going!

-Der Ketzerfreund.

[Randarkmaan]

Having read the book (1st one, I have 2 and 3, but haven't read them yet), and enjoyed and been intrigued by it, I could gladly give you some help in contemplating how to do stuff in such a mod, which would be very cool if done properly. After all 2 heads thinking results in more thoughts than only one.

Anyway, I don't know if you agree with me but I'll just speak my mind, I don't think that if one is to develop a Dune modification that those concepts should be used. I find that Dune should portray a more baroque grandiose flavour to architecture and ship and vehicle construction. Also those soldiers look far much like something out of Star Wars/Halo, aren't soldiers in Dune described as wearing more traditional uniforms? It seems that they almost describe 19th/18th century-esque uniforms, and Duke Leto's father is for an example said to portrayed in a matador outfit on his portrait, which says something.
And I understand those aren't your concepts ofcourse, but it seems that the game has a very standard sci-fi approach to it's imagery, with it's slender aerodynamic lines, something I think doesn't really fit Dune. Do you agree?

[The Count(er)]

I never heard of Dune but this does look like a nice idea good luck on getting the mod completed

[Ketzerfreund]

Having read the book (1st one, I have 2 and 3, but haven't read them yet), and enjoyed and been intrigued by it, I could gladly give you some help in contemplating how to do stuff in such a mod, which would be very cool if done properly. After all 2 heads thinking results in more thoughts than only one.

You're the first one to reply twice to this thread, so you're more than welcome.

Anyway, I don't know if you agree with me but I'll just speak my mind, I don't think that if one is to develop a Dune modification that those concepts should be used.

What do you mean by "those" concepts? The units of "Dune II"? Of course not, I just linked the images of ornithopters to give people who don't know the scenario an idea of what an ornithopter would be in this scenario.
And since nobody but the Fremen has access to sandworms (maybe the Atreides would get them late in the campaign and only if friendly to certain Fremen tribes), the others must use ornithopters. There's nothing else for others available for crossing the wild deserts (=E:TW-sea )
The concept of replacing ships by these aircraft and "upper parts of sandworms" seems the most makeable to me.

I find that Dune should portray a more baroque grandiose flavour to architecture and ship and vehicle construction. Also those soldiers look far much like something out of Star Wars/Halo, aren't soldiers in Dune described as wearing more traditional uniforms? It seems that they almost describe 19th/18th century-esque uniforms, and Duke Leto's father is for an example said to portrayed in a matador outfit on his portrait, which says something.

If I understand you right in that your critique aims at the unit design of "Dune II", I'm with you all the way.

And I understand those aren't your concepts of course, but it seems that the game has a very standard sci-fi approach to it's imagery, with it's slender aerodynamic lines, something I think doesn't really fit Dune. Do you agree?

Of course, I do. I didn't make the images of the "Dune II"-ornithopters link to the unit list of that game, because I'd want to use their designs directly, (god forbid! ), but because forum rules obligated me to link to the sources of any posted images (see the "Jumping the gun"-sticky in this forum section).
It might still be useful as a source of inspiration, however. Remember: In the first post I mentioned that the Ordos would not be included - that should point to the fact that this mod shold have to do next to nothing with any of the Westwood-games in regard to content or gameplay.


What sources do we have anyway?

- The books, of course.

- The David-Lynch-film (not everyone has to like it; when people came out of the theaters, having just seen that movie, they had to read the first book to actually get what was happening why in that movie ) - it's flaws in respect of content don't need to bother us; I just think it's designs of buildings, uniforms etc., however, does justice to the feudal sci-fi scenario. It's not as if the society of that story wouldn't make use of any technology. I don't think that soldiers fighting outside on that desert planet would wear tricornes...


Here are some nice shots from the movie (be sure to click the links behind the pics - they have lots more photos):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Distill-suits, allowing the crossing of bigger areas of land. Maybe make a certain building give that to an officer as an ancillary which gives a certain percentage of more movement points:


Baron Vladimir Harkonnen - see that nice touch of "baroque" in his clothing (he just doesn't take much care of it ):


Now, Duke Leto Atreides and his son do care:


See, what an Atreides-officer could look like (Patrick Steward = Gurney Halleck to the left; right of Paul Atreides you can see Dr. Yueh, a basis for including doctors as ancillaries in the mod :p):

- The mini series - As far as I know, it's closer to the books than the movie, I havent' seen much of it, yet, unfortunately. Will try to get my hands on it, then I can tell you more. I haven't seen the unedited three-hour-version of Lynch's movie, yet, either.

- The Westwood games - but only as a last resort...

[Randarkmaan]

Sorry if I was a bit unclear, I should have said "units" when I said "concepts"

I haven't really seen the movie, though I've seen pictures, I've seen it for sale in a store though.

Anyway regarding the Fremen, have you also imagined them as wearing more than just the stillsuits? There's reference to cloaks and robes and hoods if I recall correctly. Myself I always figured them a bit like Tuareg or Bedouin, but ofcourse with crysknives and very, very dark blue eyes without any white in them. Though I like the design of the stillsuits in that image, makes you at least somewhat thankful the Fremen don't wear robes in that movie perhaps, so you have something to base the design of the stillsuits off.

[Ketzerfreund]

You're right, the Fremen should wear cloaks and hoods. The elite unit of the Fremen, the Fedaykin, maybe not - they might be the most "modern" looking unit of them all, the local counterpart to Imperator Shaddam's Saurdaukar.

+rep to you for helping me keep this thread among the first-page-visible ones, Randarkmaan.
As you see, many don't know about the scenario, so we've got to ensure that as many as possible of those that do get the chance to notice this thread.

[Randarkmaan]

Finally I get my rep! That's it! My work here is done!

...On a more serious note, remember in one of the latest previews they mentioned this new campaign map agent/unit? The Gentleman? Who would be able to challenge generals and the like to duels, we've already got duels confirmed, and now it seems you can go around challenging people, some people might think that this might make that appear a bit often in ETW, but it's really perfect for the Dune universe. Considering the importance placed on personal combat and duelling (i.e. the Fremen settle most disputes by personal combat for an example, and the duel in the end of the book). Let's hope there animations for fighting with daggers!

You're right, the Fremen should wear cloaks and hoods. The elite unit of the Fremen, the Fedaykin, maybe not - they might be the most "modern" looking unit of them all, the local counterpart to Imperator Shaddam's Saurdaukar.

Well maybe some sort of the same style of desert clothing but more uniform and perhaps a bit more... "militant". If my scanner had worked I could have tried to sketches, but without it, it's kinda pointless, but at least we can discuss it, and at least keep it on the first page.

This is sort of similar to the "mental image" I'm having (I hope you will excuse me for posting images of terrorists )
Both pictures have guys wearing a similar (enough) desert style of clothing, but the guys in the second picture wear more uniform clothing, with somewhat similar colours and composition of dress, and with the fatigues it's more 'modern'.

[Ketzerfreund]

I like the white dressed guy in the top picture.
Imagine the white as beige/sandcoloured, tighten the cloth up a bit, and you have what would resemble a Fremen garrison unit, a sietch militia. The clothing would be that of a common Fremen "citizen", if you will.

The "real" troops for outside action would use stillsuits, therefore they'd have tubes going up their noses and mouthmasks instead of those cloth scarfs.
Clothing like that of the guy in white and the guy in brown next to him could be worn over stillsuits...

We have quite some options for giving certain troops distinctive looks.

Here's a high-res-map scanned from book one from Wikipedia. See the marking lines along the "worm line" - every desert area between that and the continents would be "sea":

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I wonder how map editing will be done in E:TW...

[Master Zuma]

great idea i will help then empire come out

[Ketzerfreund]

Great!

First things to do (this is kind of my own personal checklist; feel free to add stuff. ):

- Find out what can be done in E:TW.
- Find out about how we can make use of E:TW's features (making the northern and southern hemispheres of Arrakis two seperate maps linked to each other at certain locations, for example).
- Research faction units, names, ranks, buildings, characters.
- Find ways to use scripts for interweaving the gameplay with the original storyline somehow (if-then, ancillaries, traits, diplomacy), having it fork into alternatives to the original story according to what the player does (almost making it some kind of "strategy-adventure"), at least for the organizations, so that playing them will actually be worthwile.

[Ramashan]

I really like this idea and I think having the ability to make sand worms travel through the sand like ships is a huge bonus for it.

Looks like you have a good idea of what you want, my only suggestion would be to have Duncan Idaho be a character that pops up in the Atreides faction every so often and offers several benefits. Cause you know, he is the ever present character through all the books.