Paeninsula Italic Suggestions and Comments

[Aper]

Well if my lethality system seems acceptable to you I can do it, no problem, unfortunately I'm so sick that I find more fun in making a mess of the EDUs that in actual playing...

Suggestions always appreciated!!

[Hister]

Aper - very good! I'll send you a pm.

[Hister]

I've checked EB's weapon lethality values and they range from 0.04 for knifes up to 0.4 for mounted spears. I thus advice you Aper that you create lethality values that range between those min. and max. values. Of course you leave all javelins and arrows at the value of 1!

Luciano created many different types of close combat weapons. The attack values for each will help you determine what kind of weapon does particular unit in EDU have. Just look at the attack value of either primary or secondary weapon in unit's EDU and then check the below weapon type list.

Example:

type Ensiferi Brettii
stat_pri 6, 4, pilum, 40, 2, thrown, blade, piercing, spear, 15 ,1
stat_pri_attr prec, thrown ap
stat_sec 7, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 15 ,0.25

Ensiferi Bretti have 7 attack value for their sword which means they have either machaera, kopis, xystos or falcata. But only machaera weapon type has 4 charge value (others have 3 - see the list below) which means ensiferi bretti have machaera! It's on you to decide what lethality values you want to assign to each particular weapon type.

close combat weapon types: (attack value, charge value)
- machaera: 7, 4
- gladium: 8, 3
- kopis, xystos, falcata: 7, 3
- Celtic long sword: 6, 5
- Celtic sword: 5, 4
- other swords: 5, 3
- dagger: 4, 2
- knife: 2, 1
- heavy axe: 5, 4
- light axe: 3, 3
- short spear: 5, 4
- punic spear: 6, 4
- hoplite spear: 7, 4
- pike: 9, 4
- cavalry spear: 5, 5

Please don't change any values of javelins as of now since I personally believe they are quite nicely balanced!

I would first like you to discuss publicly what lethality values would you give to particular weapon type. Since there might be some types which you are not familiar with this is of utter importance to discuss publicly in order to make the system be realistic!


So what do you say - are you up for the task?

P.S. Use the last edu from 0.72 patch!

[Aper]

Even too much up for the task, I have already done a version before seeing your PM LOL

If will not change javelins if you think it's better, however I've made some tests removing the AP attribute from Pila and doubling their attack, and against heavily-armored enemies they cause a maximum 10% casualties from the front, but against unarmored warriors like celtic ones, well, it's an onslaught! Quite realistic in my opinion, however for now I'll leave their stats as they are.

Using the values I have already posted, these are the results for each weapon:

Machaera, kopis, falcata : 0.05 cut + 0.05 pierce +0.05 blunt = 0.15 base.
I use the same values for all of them because they are all slash&thrust weapons with a particular shape that concentrate the weight on the last third of the weapon, almost like an axe: this cause blunt damage to the opponent, that in EB is represented by the AP attribute, but in my opinion this is unbalancing, and in the spirit of Real Combat we should limit it as much as possible.

Gladium, Xiphos, generic swords : 0.05 cut + 0.05 pierce = 0.1 base
AFAIK the Xiston is a cavalry spear, not a sword...:hmmm: I suppose you mean the Xiphos, the basic hellenic sword... Not much to say here, they are all simple slash&thrust weapons, and their differences can be represented well by the attack and charge values, maybe I can give more variety by adding or leaving a 0.01 to some of them, but I don't think the player will notice it...

Axes : 0.05 cut + 0.05 blunt = 0.1 base, AP attr.
Here appears the AP attribute, balance with swords is keeped by the low attack of axes (the 2 handed axe gain an addictional +0.05 because of the strenght of the both arms)

knife, dagger, spears : 0.05 thrust = 0.05 base
Well, knives and daggers are crappy (but daggers have better attack), the spear is not as effective as swords but its true strenght was its cheap cost and its use in closed formations, so that each enemy must face 2-4 soldiers arranged in a shield/pike wall, resulting in the end one of the most dangerous weapons if used correctly.
About the pike, I don't know if adding a 0.05 because it's 2 handed, or not, after all the additional strenght of the second arm should be nullified by the lenght of the weapon...

I don't know which value give to celtic longsword, I think a 0.15 just like the other best swords.

All cavalry weapons get a +0.05 from the additional momentum granted by the moving horse, or, in melee against infantry, from the high position that allows stronger blows.

All these values have to be added to the "training" bonus of the unit, that are (based on the Real Combat adaptation for PI):
Peasant (1-3 base morale) : +0.0 lethality
Militia (4-6 b m) : +0.05 leth
Average (7-9 b m) : +0.1 leth
Superior (10-11 b m) : +0.15 leth
Elite (12-13 b m) : +0.2 leth
Special (14+ b m) : +0.25 leth
The strongest units get a total of 0.45 lethality, which should be quite well balanced, only schyted chariots reach an arbitrary 0.5 because I think that those big spooky blades should be more effective than any weapons wielded by a single man.

However, please give me any advice you may want, this is still an example of how it could work, and if not satisfactory we can think something else!

(END of my longest post ever!!!!)

[Hister]

Ah yes,I see you are the man for the task - well atleast first step (theory) is very nicely constructed and I like it a lot! No need to change anything you wrote here. Now comes the biggest and most important step - to code this theory in the edu file to all units!


P.S. while you are at it can you please also change the number of soldiers considerably in charioters units? Only barbarians are ought to have higher numbers of soldiers in such a unit (also to compensate for their rather weak infantry).

[Aper]

Something I forgotten : I want to add the "short_pike" attribute to hoplites and triarii, to make them more effective and to mark the difference with other spearmen, just like in the excellent "TW Fanatic's Hoplites mini-mod" for EB.
It's an attribute very simple to add/remove, not a great waste of time...
What do you think about this?

EDIT : ehm, what do you mean when you say barbarian? only Gauls or all faction that have chariots except the Poeni?

[Hister]

Yes yes definitely!

Give only Gauls the bigger numbers for chariots! Other factions haven't had such prominent numbers of those chariots on the battlefield.

[Aper]

Another thing I remembered looking at the EDU : melee infantry, and especially phalangitai and chariots, are overpowered in auto-resolve, causing odd results in AI vs. AI battles. I'm thinking to fix this (IMPORTANT : this does not affect played battles!) using the trick of adding 1 additional secondary HP to all units that currently have a 0 value, 2 sec HP to foot archers and slingers, mounted javeliners and lancers, and 3 sec HP to mounted archers.

Further details can be found in the EDU guide, or in this thread at the .Org, in which is discussed the application of this principle in EB (I'm using the EB approach) http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...t=auto-resolve

[Hister]

Ha, I wanted to mention you this if you can also implement it but I thought rather not in order not to give you to much of work but now that you've proposed it - sure go ahead with it. Many thax Aper if you'll really make all this happen!

Balancing auto-resolve

The second value of stat_health can be used to improve the balance of auto-resolve. Certain units like chariots are currently overpowered in it, while other like mounted and missile units are underpowered. Here follow some rough suggestions on how to assign sec hp values in order to balance auto-resolve more evenly:

Animal units stay as they are.
All other units get 5 sec hps.
Units with 2 or more prim hps get -1 sec hp for each extra prim one.
Missile units with low-medium missile attack get +1 sec hp.
Missile units with medium-high missile attack get +2 sec hps.
Mounted units with low-medium charge get +1 sec hp.
Mounted units with medium-high charge get +2 sec hps.

[Argyri]

You guys are awesome... I don´t have enough time to play PI that often or as long as I would like to but when I read threads like this I decide to hang on it... keep it up!

[Hister]

Many thanx Argyri - believe me - Real Life really suffers when you do what I do.

[Aper]

Ok first little problem: I can't distinguish Xiphos from Kopis from the EDU and the textures, and this is a problem because they should have different lethality. I checked some units in custom battles, but others aren't present ; I'm speaking of the Ferentarii of these peoples : Aequi, Volsci, Hernici, Aurunci, Marsi, Vestini, Sicani ; and I need even to know the weapon used by Ensiferi Vestini. Can you help me, Hister?

I gave to the chariots of non-Gallic peoples the base unit size of 12 instead of the original 18 : is this acceptable?

Apart from this minor problems, the work is done (I have not yet implemented the auto-calc fix, but I'll do soon)
EDIT : I have added the aut-calc fix, but IMHO it need some testing. I have raised the attack of the Xiphos swords that I had been able to find to 8, so now is equal to Gladium in the stats, that makes sense to me, they are almost the same sword and this help me greatly in distinguish them from kopis/falcata.

[Aper]

Ok time for a release!
The FIRST is the version with the lethality, short_pike, chariots and auto-calc fixes : please take a look to it and give me your suggestions and comments especially about the extra sec HPs.

The SECOND is a version where I added the light_spear fix : the "spear" attribute gives to the units too much pushing power, and so they easily break the formation, if the soldiers aren't kept together by "phalanx" formation. So the phalangitai are left untouched, the hoplitai still have the "spear" to portrait the "shield-push" (but I think the effect is excessive), the other spearmen gain the "light_spear" (instead of the "spear") attribute, that reduce their spread during the fight.
The drawback of "light_spear" is the hard-coded -4 to defense vs. infantry (infos from yhe EDU guide), to counter this I have added to the changed units a +4 to their defense: this make them a little stronger in melee vs. cavalry, but hey, cavalry is meant to die against spearmen in any case! and however from the stats the PI cavalry seemed a little overpowered to me anyway...

I took a suggestion from this thread http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=189052 and I tweaked the Soldier Radius of Hoplites: that make them keep the formation without using the "short_pike" attribute, that have some undesired issues; the new values depend as always on morale. I also gave them the "light_spear" because the pushing power of the "spear" is IMO too much for any unit except phalangitai. The version with new hoplites that have changed soldier radius, "light_spear" instead of "spear", and no short_pike is the THIRD

Well, what to say, try these and write your impressions!

EDIT : old files removed

[Hister]

Waaaw, great Aper! Will try today and report my impressions.

[Aper]

I have edited the post while you were reading be sure you don't miss the news.
Try the THIRD version before, IMO is the best

[Hister]

Will do Aper!

[Hister]

Nice work Aper - I tested 3rd file you posted.

I tested hoplite unit against ensiferi unit and ensiferi totally won over hoplites. They had the same attack and defense values. This shouldn't happen - hoplites should win over ensiferi units by my opinion if both units share the same attack and defense stats! What can you do in that regard?

I noticed that all carpentarii units have "none" for the:

stat_pri 3, 2, javelin, 50, 6, thrown, archery, piercing, none, 15 ,1

Please write spear instead of none 'cos otherwise charioteers have an archery shooting sound.

Give venetian carpentarii units lower number of soldiers in a unit then the Gauls have.

Regarding second health values i suppose they are okey if they are based on EB.

I can't distinguish Xiphos from Kopis from the EDU and the textures, and this is a problem because they should have different lethality.

Have you managed to solve that problem? I also don't know which units have what in that regard - I asked Luciano on the matter but he isn't available for now.

...and thank you very much Aper!

[Hister]

P.S. Forgot to mention Aper that you can diversify a bit attack/defense values of Greek hoplite units which currently share the same stats!

[Aper]

I tested hoplite unit against ensiferi unit and ensiferi totally won over hoplites. They had the same attack and defense values. This shouldn't happen - hoplites should win over ensiferi units by my opinion if both units share the same attack and defense stats! What can you do in that regard?

It depends heavily on the tactic you use : I tested a lot Spartiatai Hoplitai vs. Ensiferi Messapii, one of the best swordsmen unit, and the results varied from crushing defeat for Spartans (attacking with shieldwall and guard-mode on) to heroic victory for them (waiting with shieldwall and guard-mode on until the ensiferi were exhausted, and then disable both and attack). I had average victories attacking from the beginning with all defensive stances disabled, and mixed results with only one enabled.

Don't forget to use for tests units with the same morale level, because this cause a great change in the lethality of their weapons and so in their performance, even if the other stats are similar.

One of the biggest problems with units that fight in tight formations is that usually their front-line is shorter than the one of the swordsmen, so they almost always get attacked on the flanks, that is very bad for them and disrupt the formation. Solutions can be extend the front line reducing its depth, or give the hoplites more men.
However I've noticed from vanilla BI up to now that shieldwall usually perform badly when you attack, and since it is the default stance it can be a problem for the AI, because it is usually aggressive in played battles...

The secondary HP I gave are not based on EB but on the EDU guide, because I noticed that your "beast units" (chariots) have very high HP compared to EB standards, so I tought that Aradan's approach maybe should fit better, but only extensive testing can give us an answer to this question

Regarding the Xiphos/Kopis issue, no, up to now I have not a solution I'll try to recruit during a campaign the units that I need to check

[Aper]

It's odd. I'm testing Clipeati Veneti ( I made them hoplite-like units) vs. Ensiferii Messapii : they have same stats and morale, flat terrain, the only advantage of ensiferi is 0.35 vs 0.25 lethalithy, but they slaughter easily my clipeati, no matter what tactic I use. I tried to give clipeati 50 men per unit, raise their mass a bit and give them 8 shield-defense (because they fight as a whole, not as individual warriors), but the results are the same.

Once Marcus Aurelius Antoninus, from the EB team, said that ALL spears get an hardcoded -4 attack vs swordsmen, not only the "spear". I thought he was wrong because the EDU guide say otherwise, but maybe he was correct...

This is important : in the vanilla PI EDU (that I have no more) how performed hoplites?? better than in my modified files??