Phalanx Superiority

[darthbane7]

Spartans are an exeption to life, but this tactic will work agaisnt armoured hoplites and silver shields using chosen swordsmen/basternae and other infantry of that quality.

Spartans indeed. Of course I prefer royal pikemen to those over powered Spartans for mobility, greater reach, more manpower, and lower prices and upkeep. (I.e. on pretty much any mod that features Spartans, esp XGM).

[Saint_jimmyz]

The trick with spartans, using the same army I have mentioned above, is to charge them with infantry and then hit them in the rear with cavalry hitting in waves, so that the third wave attacks the rear of a broekn formation, and quickly routs the unit.

[darthbane7]

Srry to drag out an debate, but I thought that Spartans have an unaturally high morale level, (in descr_unit, I can't remember their base level, but it was pretty high), and on top of that they have highly_trained, and disciplined).

In my games, even if I charge Spartans from the back (On H/H) they don't insta rout, and by the time cav is there, they are: 1) surrounded and will fight to the death, 2) Or the Spartans will start to turn around, and when my cav hits, lower those spears and kill my cav.

I think they have a high enough morale level to be able to turn around while fighting and attack cav with spears. I guess, with higher level cavalry (I'd only ever use catas, elephants, praetorian and maybe companions/sacred band) this might work assuming #2 up there doesn't happen.


Annoying as anything, but I've a another solution: Massed horse/camel archers.
(well, that works only in big open fields, and only in vanilla 1.5, as XGM and RTR both lessen the effect and damage of arrows and projectiles, so I'd have to subscribe to your strategy in those mods)

[Saint_jimmyz]

The trick is to engage the spartans with infantry, so if they turn and face the cav your infantry will shred them. Always leave a flank exposed, so they can flee rather than fight to teh death.

[fourganger]

The trick is to engage the spartans with infantry, so if they turn and face the cav your infantry will shred them. Always leave a flank exposed, so they can flee rather than fight to teh death.

Or simply don't leave your cavalry in protracted combat. Charge and withdraw. Play RTR and you'll do this by habit.

[darthbane7]

Well, RTR has huge charge values, so the same can't be said for RTW 1.5. Anyways, not all cavalry can only fight by the strategy of charging and pulling out. Ellephants are one example, as I prefer to keep em in the melee for a little while longer, to lower morale of infantry.

[aznflea]

arent you suppose to move your elephants through the enemy infantry so that they break formations? elephants arent very good fighters imo, even tho i havent used them much

[Legio]

arent you suppose to move your elephants through the enemy infantry so that they break formations? elephants arent very good fighters imo, even tho i havent used them much

In vanilla and some mods like SPQR, they have been good fighters in my experience. Their weaknesses are long spears and javelins. Otherwise they should be fine.

[darthbane7]

As Legio Caeser posted, elephants are good fighters (mostly because of huge hp values, and ap attack), and if you run them through a formation with ranged ability, once the elephants are through, they can fire back with arrows/pila

[Saint_jimmyz]

I mainly use elephants as psychological weapons. And flankers. Elephants as flankers are mean. But so are chariots.

To link this to the main topic, one of my favorite seleuccid tactics is to pin the enemy down with silver shields, and then simultaneously charge a mass of scythed chariots and kataphracts into the rear. The result is a massacre.

[darthbane7]

Bah, chariots now they're the ultimate weapons of destruction... provided you don't keep em in sustained combat, where the enemy infantry will start getting hits in, and kill the chariots*. Chariots are the only "heavy" cavalry to have to resort to a charge and run strategy.
But back to topic, my prefered choice of phalanx would be with royal pikemen. They are cheaper than silvers, have 30% more men than any other hoplite unit.

I would use your strategy, only adding in lots and lots of companions and archer support. Although this is hard to pull off (esp in mp), I'd run my companions into any kind of flank guards the enemy has, and at the same time, run my archers up to the flanks. Assuming I utilize my cavalry well, or the opponent makes a stupid move, I kill what ever flank cavalry there are, deal with enemy archers with companions. And all the while, my archers are still running for the flanks, and once they get there, pepper the enemy infantry from a side where kills are increased, or get into a shootout with enemy archers.

I do note that the enemy could be shooting at my pikemen with archers. This is not too much of a problem. They have a decent defense, the arrows are coming in and hitting from the front, and have numbers on their side.

Then move my royal pikemen up and either: 1) Decimate the enemy infantry, esp. if it unit is not roman/iberian (Those nasty suckers, bull fighters/urbans, are a pain to deal with) or 2) Get into a slugging match where i might lose, but by that time I have my companions charge and kill the enemy infantry. And hopefully rout all those men off the field.

However, my plan hinges on superior cavalry. The phalanx is really not the main thing here. The phalanx is the holder. Although, if my infantry face off against enemy urbans/praets/bull warriors, I might have a situation on my hands.

[Saint_jimmyz]

I use a unit of silver shield legionaries on the flank of my silver shield pike wall, to counter flankers and perhaps flank the enemy themselves. Kataphracts and chariots give me superior cavalry, as chariots will run down light cavalry without slowing down. I tend to use my archers merely to pin down the enemy's, and use my cavalry to drive away the archers and rear-charge the enemy. The only way to deal with Urbans and Bull Fighters is to repeatedly charge/withdraw with several units of kataphracts in the sides. The impact alone does the most damage.

[Juicemisbruk]

A phalanx can beat anything thats not an phalanx, atleast against the AI. I once had 2 armoured hoplites defending a city, no walls. The AI had an entire army of eastern infantry and one general. The AI charged ALL of its troops into the same place, my hoplite killed tons of them but when the general came amongst the masses of infantry they got a little tinned out, but my second hoplite just took over. The enemy lost its general and atleast 1500 troops, while i lost about 30 men. However, it's pretty easy to beat the phalanx if the AI is controlling it. On the defensive, you can NEVER lose, unless your an ant or something. Offensive, i usually have one or 2 lines of hoplites, archers in the back and cavalry on the rears. Just like Alexander.

[Saint_jimmyz]

In city streets they are deadly. But out in the open you need flank guarders or even the AI will flank you and rout your entire army.

[Juicemisbruk]

In city streets they are deadly. But out in the open you need flank guarders or even the AI will flank you and rout your entire army.

If your defending, you can be cheap and use the red line

[Saint_jimmyz]

I suppose, but that is a bit sly and underhand. Using a hill can almost eliminate the problem of flankers. A flanking unit that is downhill of you will not do that much damage.

[darthbane7]

Just get some cavalry on the flank and you're fine . And on a hill... lots of archers will do as well. (If you're Egypt, use your archers as flank guards!)

And going back to having trouble with Bull Warriors and Urbans, I think you can only beat em with a phalanx if you have the formation set to standard, and "loose", and wait for the enemy to throw pila, quickly switch back to tight formation, and set to phalanx mode. (This has already been said, but I'd just like to bring it up again)

In mods, the phalanx's frontal strength is reduced, but I like how they are a bit more maneuverable, as they are not as unwieldly when it comes to getting out of phalanx mode and into standard to run towards the enemy (XGM, RTR, etc.) If only phalanxes had better close up fighting abilities, they'd be unstoppable! (Spartans fighting hand to hand with Urbans and winning!).

[Saint_jimmyz]

Thats one reason why I prefer mods that use hoplite in a real formation, not phalanx. Hoplites never fought in phalanx formation. RTR and SPQR portray they well.

[Juicemisbruk]

The best way to fight with a phalanx in a open fair field battle is 1 line of phalanx, and a few phalanxes behind to cover where the enemy breach trough, about 4 cavalries to cover the sides, and 2 or 3 archers behind, and maybe even a onanger. UNBEATABLE!

[darthbane7]

and maybe even a onanger. UNBEATABLE!

Oh, I don't know about that.... I prefer a lot more archers, like Pharoah's Bowmen, and that with Egyptians' elite phalanx unit, rather than just 2.

And the army composition comes out to be this:
1 General (Assuming you buy one), 4 Cav, 2 Archer, 1 onager and 12 Phalanx Units. This makes for a very rigid formation, and as many multiplayer games have cwb rules, the enemy can utilize a lot more cavalry than your plan calls for (So your nice Sacred Band Cav will be overrun by 8 Cataphract Units).

I would personally use an army composition like this:
1 Armored General (or give my general gold ups in armor), 6-8 Cav, 4 archers, and 7 pike units (I need the extra numbers, as pikemen have more men than hoplite units per unit card).

This allows you to overrun the enemy cav (hopefully), and counter-attack any enemy archers. And because I specifically use Pikemen, (And esp. if my enemy is using hoplites), hopefully, I'll have enough men to make up for my lack of unit cards (ie. 7 to 12).