Phalanx Superiority

**Trumanator** · October 21, 2008, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by Amaranth

[[[[ GATE ]]]]

>>_______<<
>>_______<<
>>_______<<
__ /\/\/\/\__

I've started using this setup more and more lately, what I had been doing is this:

[[[Gate]]]
/\/\/\/\/\

but I would cram about 10 units in the space of one. That put so many spears out front that pretty much everything died on impact, it works with fewer guys too. The problem is after a lot of the enemy start routing guys start getting pushed out of the gate. Now I only use it when I'm defending the plaza, usually because I have wooden walls and they have a lot of rams. Cramming them into the street means that they can't spread out like when they reach the gate entrance.

**Amaranth** · October 21, 2008, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by Trumanator

I've started using this setup more and more lately, what I had been doing is this:

[[[Gate]]]
/\/\/\/\/\

but I would cram about 10 units in the space of one. That put so many spears out front that pretty much everything died on impact, it works with fewer guys too. The problem is after a lot of the enemy start routing guys start getting pushed out of the gate. Now I only use it when I'm defending the plaza, usually because I have wooden walls and they have a lot of rams. Cramming them into the street means that they can't spread out like when they reach the gate entrance.

Yes it also works in streets as well, and sometimes even better.
Just place Phalanxes one after the other at the entrance of the streets, apply that to other streets that are connected to the plaza as well. And make sure you keep some shock troops behind them just in case the enemy might attack from behind with cavalary etc. Then just wait them come to you in narrow streets, and your brave Phalanxes will do the rest. Molōn labe!

PS: This stuff works way much better with XGM troops.Try to do the same tactic with special Spartan units like Periokoi Phalangites, Periokoi Hoplites etc.

**aznflea** · October 21, 2008, 07:29 PM

wtf you can come down from the walls?

i need an emoticon that says HOLY

i defended myself against the romans successfully for the first 20 turns and even invaded and destroyed them in vanilla lol

**MooseUpNorth** · October 21, 2008, 10:03 PM

Father.

Vici. Our losses were minimal.

The Athenians Rebels, hopelessly outnumbered and in bad condition, insanely refused our generous offer that they may disarm and return to the fields in exchange for pledging their loyalty to Rome (and flying the flag of House Scipii, which goes without saying.)

The Athenians had organized their malnourished militia into three squads, but had only enough spears to equip slightly more than two thirds of their peasants and townsmen. They formed phalanxes in the city plaza, which left only one hundred or so peasants, barely knowing which end of the pitchfork to hold, and cursing the days they were born, to hold the walls against our forces.

It need not be said that we were marching through the open gates of Athens no more than two hours after sunrise.

I tasked our Triarii to secure the Temple while our Hastati and Greek mercenaries staged for their attack on the plaza. The Sons of House Scipii, along with two hundred horse, awaited out of sight, opposite the plaza near the market square.

By noon, all was ready and the signal was given. Captain Aulus's Hastati feinted. An obvious ploy that any child out of swaddlings should have seen though, but these cowed and inexperienced levies leaped on the bait like a half-starved curr. They began their doomed march right into the jaws of the wolf.

Our heavy horse surrounded, outflanked, then annihilated the trailing squad. Your son-in-law fought like a lion and commanded his squad with skill. Hesta should be proud.

But more of interest is what happened next:

The remaining militia, apparently either oblivious to the trap or not knowing what else to do, marched parade-straight, fully intent on the feignting Hastati. Captain Aulus's squad valiantly stood fast and HELD the spears with their shields long enough for our Greek mercenaries to themselves skewer our inept but brave foes, en masse if you will pardon my Celtic. The Athenian holdouts were so afraid of Captain Aulus, but so determined to go game, that they entirely neglected to defend their backs. They were slain in moments.

It isn't every day the Anvil switches places with the Hammer.

What is remarkable, and perhaps worth further study, is just how quickly the militia fell once engaged by the Greek mercenaries. If we can find a way to reduce casualties on the "Anvil" side of the tactic, it may be worth retaining Hoplite auxiliaries to be used in the role of the "Hammer" in the future.

To Captain Aulus and his men, I've pledged of my own lands, over and above the lands already pledged to them at the end of their service, for their valiant initiative above the call of duty.

Julianus Scipio.

**Saint_jimmyz** · October 22, 2008, 12:53 AM

My problem is that I hate to see settlements besieged; unless I have an army nearby to support I will saly forth with the garrison to defeat the invaders. With syracuse when I do this they retreat and fight on an open plain, where their hastatii rip through levy hoplites, and do damage to normal hoplites. Maybe next time I should just wait...

**aznflea** · October 23, 2008, 05:49 AM

the hastati is a truly powerful unit. not too noticable when playing yourself but after being wooped by them i swear to god i see them in a different light. i have no idea why they are so strong. phalanxes are very powerful head on but the hastati rout my phalanxes head on. the only way is to encircle them, use superior tactics and abuse computer ai.

**Amaranth** · October 23, 2008, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by aznflea

the hastati is a truly powerful unit. not too noticable when playing yourself but after being wooped by them i swear to god i see them in a different light. i have no idea why they are so strong. phalanxes are very powerful head on but the hastati rout my phalanxes head on. the only way is to encircle them, use superior tactics and abuse computer ai.

Is that Vanilla ?

Cause Hastati not that bright against phalanxes, especially head on. Could you be using the earliest phalanx unit avaible ? Experience and Upgrades are also very decisive on the battlefield.

**MooseUpNorth** · October 23, 2008, 11:01 AM

Actually, my post above (stylistically) describes an odd observation I had the other night, where the hastati acted as the anvil against rebel militia hoplites, and my unit of merc hoplites acted as hammer.

The rebel hoplites (about 200) facing the reverse hammer (merc phalanx, almost full, no upgrades) + anvil (full hastati, bronze/bronze with two bronze chevrons) fell so fast that I never even saw it, only the line of corpses, and the stopped position of my own units.

They were annihilated before the five general units I had doing a simultaneous flanking charges (both flanks) on the militia hoplite's twin, managed to wipe out a similar (with captain) militia hoplite unit, also of 200.

**Saint_jimmyz** · October 23, 2008, 11:03 AM

Hastatii will own all hoplites and levy hoplites. Only armoured hoplites stand a chance. Thats one reason why I swapped to RTR.

**Amaranth** · October 23, 2008, 01:58 PM

Militia Hoplites may not stand a chance agaisnt Hastati, unless they're experienced and upgraded nicely. But the point I did not understand is, I didn't have any problem facing Romans with my Phalanxes when I was playing Vanilla. The only thing you need to do is Protect the flanks at all costs ! But since Greeks lack versatile units in Vanilla (in XGM Hoplites or Hypaspists are best for flank protection and wing attacks to surround enemy. Roman strentgh comes from their versatile units, like Hastati both medium range and close range fast moving infantary, Principles, and ofcourse the best Phalanx breaker Triarii. So always put your phalanxes by pairs one of the other so the broken line can be replaced easily and faster. Like this;

(/\: Phalanx P: Peltast (or some other missile unit) C: Cavalary (placed at the wings for a flank attack after Phalanx engage)

__/\ /\ /\ /\ /\__
/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\

__P_P_P_P_P__

C CC______ C C C

That's usually how I played against Romans n Vanilla.

**Saint_jimmyz** · October 23, 2008, 02:20 PM

I use a similar sort of strategy. However hammer and anvil strategies only work if your hammer can stand up to the enemy. Levy hoplites cannot, and in many cases neither can hoplites, when it comes to defending against hastatii and princeps. If using hoplites I use a long thin line (5 ranks deep on huge unit size) and I envelop the flanks of the enemy with my infantry, and use the cavalry to attack the rear and kill off the general. Sort of like Cannae all over again...

**Amaranth** · October 23, 2008, 04:23 PM

Vanilla Greek units unfortunately not very useful for a more balanced strategy like XGM units.

I use these with XGM;

A kind of army that could tremble any nation's army in almost any situation (imo)

Phalanx line on front. Single line because they're the best (Periokoi Phalangites), and could stand hard on impact. Thorakitai are behind the Phalanx, tough spearman with pilla like spears to throw, very similar to hvy roman infantary, plus strong against cavalary. Can support the phalanx and fill the line if they're broken. Hypaspists are at the wings for a quick shock attack at the flanks of the clashing enemy army, with both missiles and close combat. Cavalary are also at the two wings of the army to circle the enemy ranks and charge to crush them with synchronized attack of Thorakitai when the phalanx done with taking care of the hardest part of the battle. And ofc Cretan Archers to rain down fiery death upon the enemy, inflict both maximum casualty and cause panic in the enemy ranks, making them much likely to rout after clashing with the phalanx and taking casualty under heavy missile attacks of Thorakitai etc.. That Royal Guards in the middle is an optional unit, not very necessary to have, I put them over there just for show.

**Saint_jimmyz** · October 24, 2008, 02:38 AM

Ive been toying with XGM recently, although havent followed through with a campaign as of yet. My armies follow a similar sort of approach but rather than have the hypasist-type troops in the third rank, I use them on the ends of the first rank, so as the two lines clash my flanks overlap theirs. This also gives me a little more room to manuever my cavalry into position for a deadly charge upon the general in the center. I normally use 7, not 5, units of phalangites in my main battle line and use less Thorakitai-type troops. But apart from that my strategy is similar to yours.

**Amaranth** · October 24, 2008, 02:27 PM

I see you point. My third and second line moves two side of the first Phalanx line in contact with the enemy, (When they stop throwing their missiles) and charges the enemy from the flanks. This helps My phalanx to be flanked as well as enveloping the enemy and quickly disintigrating them. I also use more Phalanx too but in this army I choose over them cause as I said, they're much more likely to counter Roman troops, with quickness and fighting style, they can be used for a shock offensive attack, I wait Defensive with Phalanx to minimize my casualties on the first charge of the enemy, than go offensive with Thorakitai from the front and from the sides with Hypaspists and Cavalary goes directly at the back of the enemy army and charges towards my direction thus circling the enemy and destroying their every single unit.

PS: I think I couldn't make my point so I did this silly thing to make it more clear;

Unit types may vary but this usually how I do in my campaign battles against Romans.

**Saint_jimmyz** · October 25, 2008, 04:33 AM

Ive found that attacking with Thorakitai through the phalanx disrupts my formation, and leads to more casualties. I use phalanxes in two lines of 5 men deep, as this will hold formation much better than two units 10 men deep side by side filling the same area. I focus my efforts on breaking through the enemy flanks with assault infantry like hypasists of spartan royal guard, or any other form of hoplites for that matter, and attack the flanks of the enemy with these, while my cavalry attacks the enemy rear, aiming for the enemy general as the death of the general will often lead to a mass rout.

**Amaranth** · October 25, 2008, 05:17 AM

Yes ofc you shouldn't attack through them, It's only where your phalanx broken through or weakened by enemy and Phalanx no longer effective in their formation. OR when the enemy on the front are thinned, retreating or when you don't need to stand in defensive stance with Phalanxes any more and Charge towards the enemy forces quickly, that's where you should do that. Otherwise just send them to flanks like I drawed up there. But as you experienced, the general idea works just fine isn't it ? I mean it's just okay for dealing with Romans.

**Saint_jimmyz** · October 25, 2008, 05:28 AM

I see what you mean now. And yes, a perfect way of dealign with romans. Is there another way of consistently beating them? For any faction?

**Amaranth** · October 25, 2008, 05:34 AM

There should be. In vanilla Romans are just too strong for any faction. In XGM though forces are much more balanced. Romans still very strong though, some units especially seriously hard to break even when surrounded. Triarii, Preatorian Cohort etc. I don't play with different factions often but I think I'm gonna try a couple of times, find a suitable unit selection & deployment and post it here.

**Saint_jimmyz** · October 25, 2008, 06:18 AM

Thanks. I can think of one: As Thrace, surround the Romans with hordes of falxmen and basternae. You will suffer horrendous casualties due to your low defense, but inflcit vast numbers of casualties on the romans.

**Amaranth** · October 25, 2008, 07:27 AM

Gauls vs Romans
537 AD, Grassy Flatland.

Mod: (XGM)

(This post has nothing to the with Phalanxes, though it's just a reply for previous posts of me and Saint_jimmyz, about how to break Roman Forces by other factions than Greeks.)

Denarii: 30.000 to each faction.

Gaul Forces: Chosen Warlord(1), Noble Cavalary(3), Spear Warband (5), Chosen Swordsmen(3), Berserkers(2), Druids(2), Gastaea(2), Archers(2)

Roman Forces: Roman General(1), Equites(3), Principles(2), Velites(3), Legionnary Cohort(3), Legionnary 1st Cohort(1), Triarii(3), Hastati(4)