Phalanx Superiority

[Saint_jimmyz]

My problem with the Seleucids is that in RTR (the mod I play) the Seleucid Empire starts with 30(!) provinces, and is impossible to manage at first. One time I pulled all my troops and generals back to Asia Minor (now Turkey) and let the Far East Revolt. Pontus and that part of the Ptolmaic Empire fell after several decades of rebuilding, Greece and Macedonia shortly afterwards, and the Thracians and Illyrians didnt stand a chance. The Sarmtians shredded my armies with horse archers though... At this point I had 32 provinces - back to where I had started! However I also owned some of the richest provinces in the game, and has the best army and navy.

[Toorima]

One can also say that about the Urban Cohort as well. The urban cohort is jsut a title given to the legions defending Rome and the other major Italian cities, and were no different to any other legions. Apart from the obvious fear factor of course. And the main reason the roman legions were effective was the choice of weapons and armour, coupled with good training that was common amongst the elites of other armies.

Choice of weaponry and armor really wasn't the main factor. From 264 BC to 117 AD, roughly the time of romes successful military expansion, weapons and armor changed their design several times fundamentally. Romes military success didn`t depend on wether the soldiers wore a lorica hamata (chain mail) or a lorica segmentata (plate mail). It was based on the maniple/cohort tactic, their extraordinarily disicpline and a provision system that really outmatched other armies at that time. The infamous spartans declined a call for help, because they would have had to march into inner asia minor a 30 day march. The romans in contrast were able to keep up the siege of numantia for 9 months.

[Snoopy]

Phalanx will usually win against anything in a 1VS1.

But whenever additional units are thrown into the mix, phalanxes get slaughtered. They are REALLY weak when hit from two directions. I once took down 2 larger armies of Greek cavalry and hoplites with only 2 Equites, a general, and 2 Hastati. Each time I hit em from the side and front at the same time (though preferably the side slightly earlier) the hoplites would take HUGE casualties and then flee, usually with me losing only around 5 hastati. This worked especially well with Equites doing the flanking.

[Strategist]

Check the pictures I attached to see what slaughter the phalanx can cause if placed strategic =). It works at most when you have very hard battle difficulty because the enemy will keep pushing without routing .

[Toorima]

Haha, I'm using a similar tactic in siege, placing all my hoplitai in a circle behind the gate, waiting for the enemy. No matter how strong the enemy force will be, they'll all rout, heavy infantry as elephants. My own casualties will always be minor.

[aznflea]

its a well known strategy. the problem with phalanxes are that they are jsut too damn inflexible. the romans beat them out of pure flexibility. if tactically well laid out they will win but that goes for every kind of unit. tactics is a key factor in everything not just phalanxes.

i just cant get used to the defensive style of the phalanx either. im usually a really offensive player.

[MooseUpNorth]

I'm a naturally defensive player. I haven't had much trouble using phalanxes, and I'm perfectly content to let my archers do the negociating.

The Selucids look great on paper, but my problem with them is that their good infantry and cavalry units are fourth tier or higher, most of them post-marius, where Romans get effective wall troops at Tier three, both before and after marius.

The Scipii are a better fit for me, in general.

[Saint_jimmyz]

The only way I have found to consistenly beat phalanxes without heavy losses to your good troops is to 'feed' the phalanx wall cheap mercs or other worthless troops, preferably ones with throw javalin ability (not peasants, but hastatii or town watch are good examples) and then charge the rear with heavy infantry and cavalry. Use the infantry to loop around and attack the rear of the phalanxes on the flanks of the enemy, and concentrate your cavalry on the enemy general or center unit(s). If the timing is good, you can cause a mass rout and slaughter the phalanx. Anotehr good tactic is to charge elephants at the front of the unit - they will smash through the phalanx, sending it into disarray making a follow-up charge with heavy cavalry a perfect way to rout the unit.

EDIT: by heavy losses I meant losses that mattered - cheap mercs and militia dont really matter ;-)

[Amaranth]

Check the pictures I attached to see what slaughter the phalanx can cause if placed strategic =). It works at most when you have very hard battle difficulty because the enemy will keep pushing without routing .

That's really an awesome way to use phalanxes, But you should support them with another line at the back of each unit (or one for each two unit) so that you can avoid a break in the line.

Or for a triple fast kill you can support them with Skirmisher type soldiers, while they're being herded by your Spartans, they can lay the enemy dead like cattles in a slaughter house.

[Saint_jimmyz]

I have tried in RTR using a unit of Epoirot Pikemen (about the same as second tier pikemen from vanilla) to lay their pikes 'through' each of my units of Spartiates Hoplotoi (Spartans). The pikes stick through and kill many of the enemy. The trick is to not order them to attack, let the enemy charge your spartans and get skewered on my pikes. I then use a line of Rhodian slingers to pour fire on the rear line of my foes - carnage!

[aznflea]

man the spartan hoplites make me wanna play the greeks but the faction is just too damn easy to play later on. 12k per turn with the best infantry in the game...

[Saint_jimmyz]

If you can reconquer Greece from the Macedonians relatively early on you are in a good position to steamroller through europe. A strong Macedonia can leave your nation thinly spread an split by a strong enemy, making the game harder.

[Amaranth]

If you can reconquer Greece from the Macedonians relatively early on you are in a good position to steamroller through europe. A strong Macedonia can leave your nation thinly spread an split by a strong enemy, making the game harder.

I totally agree.
The first to conquer while playing as Greeks, should (and must) be Macedon!

[Saint_jimmyz]

At some of the harder difficulty settings I willingly let my settlements in Asia Minor and Sicily fall, and use the resources I get from pillaging them to fund a quick war agaisnt Macedon. Even if I do not destroy them, I still always try to capture the settlements spliting my nation apart.

Mind you, I follow that strategy with whatever nation I play as.

[Amaranth]

At some of the harder difficulty settings I willingly let my settlements in Asia Minor and Sicily fall, and use the resources I get from pillaging them to fund a quick war agaisnt Macedon. Even if I do not destroy them, I still always try to capture the settlements spliting my nation apart.

Mind you, I follow that strategy with whatever nation I play as.

I see your point, As greeks, defending Sicily (Syracuse) against Rome is nothing but wasting time and money. (It goes for Asiam settlements as well, as you need to defend it against Seleucids.) But if you can hold them however, you can build slower but stronger in long term.

As for Syracuse, if you hold it you can invade the whole italy and Carthage spreading from there. In my vanilla camp. Syracuse became my first huge city and was the only place where I could train Spartan Hoplites. With an army of powerful spartans and hvy cavalary I assaulted to Rome (capital) directly, and took it. It didn't took long to destroy them completely once I did that. With Rome and Syracuse as Huge cities I build an army even Alexander himself would envy and spread to Asia, hitting with all I got at the Seleucids and Armenians, Parthians and Egypt.

What I'm trying to say is, you don't always have to sacrifice your splitted settlements, you just need to focus your strength in one side as offensive and the other part as defensive. Once the hardest faction (depending your faction) is out of the way you can unleash your full strength in every corner of empire. This especially works for Greek Cities, however it can work with other factions as well.

[Saint_jimmyz]

I have found that the Scipii will assault the city within 10 turns of the start of the game, and unless you ship valuable troops there quicky it will fall to its outclassed foes. Levy hoplites just aren't good enough to deal with hastatii! One time I modded the game to give me 4 units of hoplites in Syracuse, it defended the attacks from the Scipii and then I took Messana, and sued for peace. This gave me a good base on Sciliy, and the rest of the island quickly fell. This gave me a stable enough income to out train and defeat Macedon, thus giving me the edge over everyone else!

[Trumanator]

Whenever I've played the greeks the scipii always stick a spy in Syracuse who opens the gates. They then abandon all their equipment and charge the gate where I've stacked all my militia hoplites/ regular hoplites. Its a pain in the rear, but I always find Syracuse fairly easy to defend. Even if they do go for the walls with ladders or whatever I just let them have them and stick my hoplites right outside the door. That takes care of them.

[Amaranth]

I just let them have them and stick my hoplites right outside the door. That takes care of them.

[[[[ GATE ]]]]

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(>, /\ : Hoplite (Phalanx) Unit and it's direction.)


Placing your Phalanxes inside the gate like these is one of the best way to defend against a superior opponent with more versatile troops, such as Romans in early game. You need to train considerable amount of Phalanxes and some archers. Place archers on the walls, rain fiery death upon enemy to break their morale, and cause as much casualty as you can. Then wait them to attack with their rams and confront them inside your walls right at your gate.

It's exactly the same mentality as the famous Battle of Thermopylae no matter how stronger or numberous the enemy are, at a narrow point like a gate, you'll face only a small amount of troop that can pass through, and your phalanx line can take care the rest. (If you can hold them in their position and prevent enemies marching through faster)

[aznflea]

yes but if they get siege towers your archers are screwed and they also get your towers making you subject to missile fire from the towers.

why dont you all try abandoning greece and asia and go to syracuse? its a cool city and once you take over rome you can pretend to be the romans and take over the world rome style. oh wait no nvm bad idea.

[Amaranth]

why dont you all try abandoning greece and asia and go to syracuse? its a cool city and once you take over rome you can pretend to be the romans and take over the world rome style. oh wait no nvm bad idea.

Haha like the Provincal Campaign of Syracuse in XGM mod ?

Though in Vanilla you'll probably be screwed by Romans so fast, it will be a new best record of Earliest Defeat in the game.

But.. I wanna try that you know, Yeah I'm gonna leave everywhere and defend Syracuse against Romans ! And see what happens.

yes but if they get siege towers your archers are screwed and they also get your towers making you subject to missile fire from the towers.

That's for when they don't build siege towers etc. When they do however you can always use the same technique at the exit of the walls, in fact they come down there even slower than the gate. And you can Put your archers down before they come out of the towers and Still fire at them when they're hold on the walls by your phalanxes.