Phalanx Superiority

[Legio]

usually, if the human controls the unit, it does better head to head with the ai unit. when i used sacred band in my carthage campaign, i destroyed armored hoplites while only taking 10-15 casualties(in one unit)

Yeah, I guess it is all in the hands of the player.

[Cemendur Telcontar]

Yea phalanxes are pretty much amazing in vanilla. However, in some mods phalanxes become incredibly weak. For example, I fought a battle in Res Gestae, Macedon vs. Sparta. I played as Macedon, had a phalanx line laid out. The spartans charged into it, and within minutes my phalanxes broke. Things like this also happened to me in games like Roma Surrectum. Which greatly angers me.

[Legio]

Yea phalanxes are pretty much amazing in vanilla. However, in some mods phalanxes become incredibly weak. For example, I fought a battle in Res Gestae, Macedon vs. Sparta. I played as Macedon, had a phalanx line laid out. The spartans charged into it, and within minutes my phalanxes broke. Things like this also happened to me in games like Roma Surrectum. Which greatly angers me.

Yeah, mods really make the phalanx less powerful. Res Gestae is good, I played today. :grin:
In ALX, phalanxes are holy and powerful!

[Amaranth]

Good point.
It should be tested against a human opponent also.

By the way if you noticed, when facing 1 vs 1 against phalanx battle, units start to move opposite sides, as an example; if one slowly moves to right and the other moves slowly to left.

In that point you need to turn and face the enemy again, and as a result your unit loses phalanx formation for a brief moment. But if you keep (really slowly, like inch by inch) rotating your unit by shortcut buttons and keep facing the enemy you'll flank them with your phalanx and they'll die in seconds. Cause AI usually (almost always) keeps it's position when you that, you can even get behind them. It's like AI doesn't react such slow movement.

[Legio]

That works but there are too many casualties for me.
I have one phalanx abandon pikes and charge from the rear with swords raised.
The poor enemy

[Amaranth]

Try facing against Urban Cohort with single Phalanx unit.
See the fun

They automaticly surrounds you and sends you to ferryman ^^

I wrote something (check previous pages) about how you can handle that situation too.

[Legio]

Try facing against Urban Cohort with single Phalanx unit.
See the fun

They automaticly surrounds you and sends you to ferryman ^^

I wrote something (check previous pages) about how you can handle that situation too.

I will! Tell me which phalanx (it has to be above hoplites) and what upgrades for each team. I will do it and post a mini-AAR in this thread.
Why? Because I am bored.

[Amaranth]

I will! Tell me which phalanx (it has to be above hoplites) and what upgrades for each team. I will do it and post a mini-AAR in this thread.
Why? Because I am bored.

I did it with Silver Shield Pikemen vs Urban Cohort (both fully upgraded)

have fun !

[Legio]

I did it with Silver Shield Pikemen vs Urban Cohort (both fully upgraded)

have fun !

I will do it on Grassy Flatland but with full bronze upgrades, I don't like gold.

[Amaranth]

I will do it on Grassy Flatland but with full bronze upgrades, I don't like gold.

Grassy Flatland was my choice too ^^

Btw if you like that, try against 3 upgraded Berserker.

[Legio]

Grassy Flatland was my choice too ^^

Btw if you like that, try against 3 upgraded Berserker.

I will do silvers against urbans, and then armored hops against berserks!

[Amaranth]

I will do silvers against urbans, and then armored hops against berserks!

Don't forget to share your experience afterwards

[Legio]

Don't forget to share your experience afterwards

I iwll post pics of the battles afterwards.

[FreshDunks101]

Watch teh urbans win, they are ridiculously unbalanced.

[NobleNick]

Are they the best melee infantary type in RTW ?
...Silvers has more men in a single unit therefore they're better at forming an effective phalanx formation, even the perfect morale of Spartans fades when fighting while exhausted and eventually they run away.
I also tried, other phalanx units against Silvers and also non-phalanx like Berserkers and Urban Cohort, Bull Warriors etc.
Silvers succeeded beating all others.

What are your opinions about Phalanx Units ?
Do you like them or not ?
If you like them which faction's phalanx is the best ?

...Tell me which phalanx (it has to be above hoplites) and what upgrades for each team...:

Aramanth, did you alternate the sides you played, or did you just command Silvers?

I did some experiments a few years ago: Pitted Urbans against Legionary Cohort (LC) and against Spartans. No upgrades. I did large battles (10 or more units per side), did enough battles to get statistical confidence, tried to play in such a manner that generalship was minimized as a factor (i.e., I tried to play exactly as dumb as the A.I), and I alternated the sides I played. (This last step, because the real players forces seem to get an advantage over the AI, in custom battles.)

The results were that, on a unit-for-unit basis, Spartans beat Urbans, and both beat LC. BUT, on a per-denarii basis, LC beat Urbans, and both beat Spartans. I did not run any tests with silvers. Of all infantry I tested, LC were clearly the cost effective king. I would love to go back and re-run some experiments with LC and Silver Shield.

My bet is that the LC would lose on unit-for-unit, but come out ahead in denarii-for-denarii.

I hope you found this interesting.

[Legio]

Test 1- Silver Shields versus Urbans
RTW 1.3
Grassy Flatland
Midday
Medium
3 bronze chevrons, 1 bronze sword, 1 bronze shield for both units.

I started the battle facing the Romans at an angle.

When they got close, I ordered my silvers to charge with secondary attacks, since they were beginning to throw their pila.

Then I ordered them to reform the phalanx, and a few of the Romans even fell.

However, the better armor and bigger shields of the Romans began to tell.

The lucky one escaped, and the Romans did not pursue.

The result was a clear defeat. The silver shields killed 8 Romans and lost 59 of their own men.



Discussion-
1- Why this result, and from RTW, which seems to favor phalanxes?
2-What could have been done to reverse the outcome?
3-Historical Tidbits for Fun

1- The Urbans have better armor, and stats generally. Also, their large shields allowed them to knock away the long unwieldy sarissas.

2- Outnumber the Romans, include some cav or missiles, even another phalanx unit.

3- The pike phalanx was long since outdated. The Romans could just 'slog" their way through the pikes, and their better armor and swordsmanship decided the outcome.

Next test- 2 armored hops against 3 berserkers!

edit: Oh saw your post NobleNick

[Amaranth]

Discussion-
1- Why this result, and from RTW, which seems to favor phalanxes?
2-What could have been done to reverse the outcome?
3-Historical Tidbits for Fun

1- The Urbans have better armor, and stats generally. Also, their large shields allowed them to knock away the long unwieldy sarissas.

2- Outnumber the Romans, include some cav or missiles, even another phalanx unit.

3- The pike phalanx was long since outdated. The Romans could just 'slog" their way through the pikes, and their better armor and swordsmanship decided the outcome.

Next test- 2 armored hops against 3 berserkers!

edit: Oh saw your post NobleNick

Nice one Legio.

I'm gonna post my results as soon as fix my screen shot problem, however I'd like to tell my opinion right now.

I completely agree that phalanxes were outdated, romans found their way well, to avoid phalanx spears and surround them thus forcing them to close combat which they are weak.

But, I found a way to victory.

Here try this;

First deselect the Guard Position option. This will help your unit to keep pressing on (without breaking phalanx formation) rather than standing still and wait for the enemy to come closer.

Now go in Standart Formation.

Then select Loose Formation. This is for when Romans throw javelins before attack, it will reduce your casualty greatly. Hit Phalanx Formation again to form phalanx in Loose Formation.

Wait for Romans to come into contact. (Vital Info; Phalanx units more likely to try in combat than more quicker units like Urbans. So don't tire your units by running to enemy, Phalanx is a defensive unit, so stand your ground and let them come to you)

After they throw javelins they will charge and immediately try to surround you if you're not in Loose Formation. So keep your formation and keep fighting until you cause at least %50 casualties to enemy.

Now, if you keep fighting like that you'll notice Romans will take the advantage to their side. Now is a time to act.

Break Phalanx Formation, Hit the run and keep running until you have a safe distance to reform (but not too far, cause your units are tired and you don't wanna exhaust them) Now turn back to enemy, hit Tight Formation and Immediately hit Phalanx Formation again to form a Tight Phalanx This will help you get a great defence advantage against Romans and since they're not crowded as they're used to be, they gonna lose morale and %80 they'll rout.

Remember this too; Morale and Stamina are the keys in this battle. So if you kill their commander first and/or avoid getting your commander killed (at least at the begining of the battle) your advantage will be great.

Try with this technique and see if you can make the results different. This is not %100 chance succesful however cause you may have to try a couple of times to make the timing (of reforming units etc) better.

[Amaranth]

Aramanth, did you alternate the sides you played, or did you just command Silvers?

NobleNick, I also tried as Romans, it was a victory, cause AI does not change formations, it just directly engages in Standart Phalanx Formation and makes a suicidal attack.

And I also never charge against a Phalanx unit, that would be a big mistake, after launcing javelins, I run at double speed and attack them in an angle where I can surround them from it's flank and rear thus forcing them to enter close combat and lose their morale very quickly against superior close combatants like Urban Cohorts.

(Sorry about double post btw I noticed NobleNick's post later..)

[Roman_Wolf]

actualy the ai are stupid. so the urban have the upper hand cos when controled by a humna player, the player would know better than to charg the phalanx head on. besides the phalanx are so slow to respond so urbans can flank them easily and force them to melee fighting and then its a routing party

[Amaranth]

actualy the ai are stupid. so the urban have the upper hand cos when controled by a humna player, the player would know better than to charg the phalanx head on. besides the phalanx are so slow to respond so urbans can flank them easily and force them to melee fighting and then its a routing party

Actually yes, AI can not match with a human player's intellect.

So to be fair, I tried with charging directly to the phalanx by Urbans (just like the AI would do), at first my casualties were greater than phalanx, but then phalanxes start to fall like dead leaves, then they routed.

I guess Human controlled unit always have the advantage, no what the situation. Imo.