Great Britain's greatest naval defeat?

[Mechstra]

Yes, for many European troops, doesn't matter if they were Spanish or French or British or goddamn Icelanders, being sent to the so-called Fever Islands was regarded as a death sentence.

[Arm@nd]

*** FIRST *** learn what you are talking about, *** THEN *** open your mouth, please.

Yellow fever and malaria. I'm just saying. Who brought them there does not matter; they were there, and they slew with wild abandon.

You could apply that to yourself.

First, Cartegena de Indias is in South America, not the caribbean.

Im not denying the fact that they were killed by disease and indeed it was a death sentence since they were not used to these enviroment(for any european soldier) Saying that 'X region' was ridden with disease when it was NOT is just plain ignorance and that is what unfortunately killed the attackers . They made amphibious assaults near MANGROVES, these are full of mosquitoes that transmit diseases (the natives and the spaniards knew these). They get even worst in a rainy season ...I have been in "manglares" myself so I know what im saying .....unlike YOU. One must adapt to the enviroment in order to survive, these men did NOT.

Example of what im saying

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

They had no knowledge of the terrain, period. I've been saying these since my first post in this topic.

[Redbeard]

Nonetheless, it was not a lost naval battle, but a failed amphibious assault. The Spanish 6 ships were all sunk early on, so it was actually:

30 000 British on some 180 ships vs some 5000 Spanish in a big fortress.
Now, take the 180 ships out of the equation - they were just landing platforms & sleeping quarters.

A wooden XVIIth century ship was completely unable to take on land fortifications. The cannons of the time did not have the firepower to damage contemporary forts quickly. Even in land sieges a fort wall had to be bombarded for a VERY long time before a breach was made (more like days than hours). That was because forts of that time were specifically constructed out of materials resistant to cannon fire (not steep stone walls like in medieval castles, but lower, thicker walls made from earth&brick). A non-explosive round ball from a cannon would do little damage to this unless you keep at it for a looong time. And you can't do that from wooden ships under counter fire from the fort.

Aside from the 180 ships, subtract their crew and you end up with a relatively small force of actual "assault" troops - I'd estimate the actual battle was between some 15 000 marines landed on beaches to take a big fortress manned by 6000 defenders.

When you look at those numbers, it was the British who were unlikely to win. The Marines were worse than a land army at breaching fortifications; they did not have the specialist weapons to bombard the defenders. What they were trying to do is besiege a land fortress in ships in a very unhealthy climate. That seems stupid. Add in lack of nearby docks for repairs, lack of good supplies and the British not prepared for the diseases... Poor planning.

I think the prize for beating the British Navy goes to the Dutch, not the Spanish.

[Chuffy]

I find the Anglo-Dutch wars fascinating.. Being Dutch myself, it's nice to know that the big almighty British Empire could in fact be beaten by our very small Republic..Beaten hard.. Multiple times..

But eventually they kicked us off the throne of the 'World's Finest'

But we will be back!

Well it wasn't the British Empire at all and at the time the Dutch had by far the greater naval strength and empire. Any reference to the 'might' of the British Empire has to come after the Seven Years War or Napoleon when it really was the top dog; both of which are 100 years or more outside of the Anglo-Dutch wars.

[Inhuman One]

Personly I am a bit confused by the events before and during Napoleon's rise to power.

the fourth anglo dutch wars didnt go well for the Dutch but quite soon after this war the french invade the Netherlands and the royal family flees to Brittain. Wasnt the previous conflict that serious then? How come these relations where patched up so quickly?

I also cant help but wonder what would have happened if we where not weakened by a war with Brittain and would have build up our forces when Napoleon was rising to power. Would he have taken the Netherlands still? It would have been a lot more difficult for sure.

[Tango12345]

So the difference between "getting off easy" and "badass" was one leg?? Nelson still lost an arm and an eye...is that really light? imho "light" would be a couple of fingers...

[Jihada]

I'm not sure if it;s been mentioned but British RN commanders were unwilling to call off attacks, even if the chances of success were minimal after the judgement of cowardice and execution of Admiral Byng,(Failure to attack a smaller force). Didn't Voltaire comment on this ?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[snurresprett]

I'm not sure if it;s been mentioned but British RN commanders were unwilling to call off attacks, even if the chances of success were minimal after the judgement of cowardice and execution of Admiral Byng,(Failure to attack a smaller force). Didn't Voltaire comment on this ?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

"The English shoot an admiral from time to time, to encourage the others", or something to that effect.

[gmcthecar]

]Great Britain accutally only formed in 1701. So that means that the Dutch raided England not Great Britain.

[LordKainES]

That's an amphibious assault, not a naval battle. Wooden ships versus stone fortreesses is not a Naval battle.

yeah bla bla and what about the battle of Tenerife??? (Nelson wounded xD but Lucky)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...Tenerife_(1797)


The english Counter-armada:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Armada


Or the capture of an important british convoy that made George III suffer a blackout xDDD The British financial losses were estimated at 1,500,000 £, one of the most complete naval captures ever made:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_of_9_August_1780


And my friend you can say what you want but Cartagena battle meant the total humilliation of the royal navy and Blas de Lezo demosntrated that was an epic commander and a good strategist.

[Jihada]

It looks like there having to search a pretty long time to find any significant defeats for the glorious RN.
Even at Jutland 1916 the Germans fled for home although they seemed to have the better armour and guns and never came out in force again.
The British did lose a battle ar Coronel in 1914 against a more powerful German squadron ,which itself was destroyed at the Falklands a short time after.
Although not a defeat, the greatest disgrace of WW1 was allowing the Goeben to escape to Turkey without bringing her to close battle.

[Sultan Abdülmecid I]

I would say the raid on the medway, yet that was before unification of Scotland, England and Ireland.

[devans]

yeah bla bla and what about the battle of Tenerife??? (Nelson wounded xD but Lucky)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Santa_Cruz_de_Tenerife_(1797)


The english Counter-armada:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Armada


Or the capture of an important british convoy that made George III suffer a blackout xDDD The British financial losses were estimated at 1,500,000 £, one of the most complete naval captures ever made:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_of_9_August_1780


And my friend you can say what you want but Cartagena battle meant the total humilliation of the royal navy and Blas de Lezo demosntrated that was an epic commander and a good strategist.

It wasn't a total humiliation or the biggest strategic defeat inflicted upon the Royal Navy. It sure was bad but then again Spain pretty much sucked in proper naval battles especially since the Napoleonic Wars. A bigger defeat for the Royal Navy would be the Battle of Chesapeake Bay which forced Cornwallis to surrender and changed the fate of Northern America compared to a poorly planned and executed amphibious assault on some Spanish colony. Even the Dutch raids in the 1600s were probably of a greater impact to the Royal Navy then the Battle of Cartagena. You have to keep in mind that in the 17th and 18th century it was extremely difficult to be the attacking naval force on a static fortress. Wood tends to be a bit more destroyed than stone/earth when hit with a cannonball. And only one of those materials catches fire easily... I don't really consider Cartagena as true naval battle, it's definitely a failed amphibious assault - one of many in the War of Jenkin's Ear.

[Lord Blackadder]

How about the four days battle?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Days_Battle

[Mike in Montreal]

I don't know about the greatest, but I think the latest was the destruction of Force Z (HMS Prince of Wales and Repulse) by the Japanese in December '41. It isn't much of a battle considering all the classics posted, but a significant strategic loss that guaranteed undisputed Japanese naval supremacy, at least theoretically, from the African coast to Midway.

[skap187]

How about the four days battle?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Days_Battle

This is the one for me. Not the raid to chatham or Cartagena, these for me are not true naval battles.
Four days (imagene FOUR(!) days of true seabattle and then lose. I think the English haven´t experianced that alot.
The English did get a lot of respect from the Dutch and Zeeland navy for the battle commenting that only the English, not even the Dutch, would have fought that hard regarding the situation they where in.
Even though the Dutch English wars where hard wars, there was respect and mutual sides thought that maybe they were fighting the wrong enemy.

[JaM]

Worse defeat? my vote goes with Chesapeake battle - even British didn't lost badly, they didn't won, which effectively meant they lost 13 colonies...

[valenciaMOON]

Ehrr... there was a fleet of 6 frigates fighting against that Armada so it was a naval battle.

Jenkins ear war 1739/1748
-------------------------

total dates:

British....... 407 ships loss

Spain........ 187 ships loss

[V.O.C]

A testimonie of how the defeat of Chatham keeps hounting the english.


Rudyard Kipling[edit]

Rudyard Kipling dedicated a poem to these events, giving a not altogether historically correct view of them (the poem was written approximately two centuries after the events):^[17]
If wars were won by feasting,Or victory by song,Or safety found, by sleeping soundHow England would be strong!But honour and dominionAre not maintained so,They're only got by sword and shotAnd this the Dutchmen know!The moneys that should feed usYou spend on your delight,How can you then, have sailor-menTo aid you in your fight?Our fish and cheese are rotten,Which makes the scurvy grow –We cannot serve you if we starve,:And this the Dutchmen know!Our ships in every harbourBe neither whole nor sound,And when we seek to mend a leak,No oakum can be found,Or, if it is, the caulkers,And carpenters also,For lack of pay have gone away,And this the Dutchmen know!Mere powder, guns and bullets,we scarce can get at all;Their price was spent in merrimentAnd revel at Whitehall,While we in tattered doubletsFrom ship to ship must row,Beseeching friends for odds and ends –And this the Dutchmen know!No King will heed our warnings,No Court will pay our claims –Our King and Court for their disportDo sell the very Thames!For, now De Ruyter's topsailsOff naked Chatham show,We dare not meet him with our fleet –And this the Dutchmen know!1941 "replay"[edit]

On 14 December 1941 the Dutch minelayer Jan van Brakel,^[18] which was serving as a convoy escort on the UK eastern coast, accidentally hit the anchor buoy of one of the gate vessels which were protecting the entrance to the Medway during WWII. The commander reported this incident to the port authorities, signalling: "Van Brakel damaged boom defence Medway". The instant reply was: "What, again?".^[19]