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Thread: Mongol ideas

  1. #1

    Default Mongol ideas

    Ok, I'm not sure if there's a minimod that addresses this, but the Mongols as they are in Stainless Steel 6.1 leave something to be desired. For one thing, their voices and culture are all Islamic instead of Pagan, as are the city appearances and agents (i.e. Imams). That would be fine except for the territory you're given. The territory that you start out with as the Golden Horde is, in fact, not the historical territory that belonged to the Golden Horde, it is instead closest to the territory that the Ilkhanate held. The Golden Horde was indeed Islamic, but the Ilkhanate was Pagan or Nestorian Christian. The music that plays is also the default music for the islamic factions, and I'd like to change that myself if I could just somehow get my hands on the tracks for the Mongols from the Mongol Invasion expansion to Shogun (Sands of the Gobi, Mongol Battle, Mongol Mobilize, etc.). Also, I'm not sure if it's part of the Real Recruitment submod, but the recruitment rates for Mongol units in general are waay too slow, I'm trying to find a way to increase the recruitment rate for them in general. Also, most of the default Mongol units are useless and a-historical, i.e. any of the infantry. Mongols had no use for levied peasants or spearmen or infantry of any kind, they were almost 100% cavalry/horse-archers. If I had any expertise in rendering or skinning or modeling, and if I knew how to insert the units without crashing the game, I would say that I or someone should mod it so that the Mongols become basically all varieties of cavalry and some siege engines.

  2. #2
    Caesar Clivus's Avatar SS Forum Moderator
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    Default Re: Mongol ideas

    There is a submod that changes the Mongols' religion to Pagan.

    BftB2 UPDATED 22nd DECEMBER. Member of the Complete Byzantine Unit Roster team

  3. #3

    Default Re: Mongol ideas

    That takes care of one thing, and I'm going to try the game now to see if the pagan mod works, but I'm afraid that I don't see any mods for the other issues. The issues are probably too complicated for a simple sub-mod to resolve, and I don't have the expertise to fool around with the stuff that I want to change. I wonder, is there some easier way to find the mongol cavalry units descriptions and change them so that the recruitment rates are faster?

  4. #4

    Default Re: Mongol ideas

    And yeah, after using the pagan mod and inserting the files exactly where I was supposed to, I started the mod, and went to start a fresh Mongol campaign, and then lo and behold, it won't start. I click next after selecting that I want to play as the Golden Horde, and then it takes me back a screen. Any ideas why this is?

  5. #5

    Default Re: Mongol ideas

    I have a few things to address in your original post:

    "For one thing, their voices and culture are all Islamic instead of Pagan, as are the city appearances and agents (i.e. Imams)."

    This can't be changed unless someone wants to make the entire faction from scratch and make a new culture and make new building models and such. Trust me I've already looked into this and was hoping to fix it in my Pagan Mongols mod but I couldn't.

    "That would be fine except for the territory you're given. The territory that you start out with as the Golden Horde is, in fact, not the historical territory that belonged to the Golden Horde, it is instead closest to the territory that the Ilkhanate held."

    According to this map, the starting regions are closer to the Golden Horde than the Ilkhanate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:G...Horde_1389.svg

    "The music that plays is also the default music for the islamic factions, and I'd like to change that myself if I could just somehow get my hands on the tracks for the Mongols from the Mongol Invasion expansion to Shogun (Sands of the Gobi, Mongol Battle, Mongol Mobilize, etc.)."

    I have the music files, but without creating a new culture, the Mongol music will overwrite the music for all factions under the middle_eastern culture type.

    "Also, most of the default Mongol units are useless and a-historical, i.e. any of the infantry. Mongols had no use for levied peasants or spearmen or infantry of any kind, they were almost 100% cavalry/horse-archers."

    I'd say about 80% of the SS Mongol roster is cavalry, but for balancing I think some infantry units had to be added.

    My solution:

    If you're willing to/have the ability to, I could help you create a new culture for the Mongols, but it would take a lot of modeling/skinning/scripting work and it would be a very large change in the game and would heavily modify a lot of the core files that came with SS. I wouldn't want to put so much time into this project if there was no guarantee that it would be in the next official download of SS. I was also trying to get Caesar Clivus to help with making new units since he helped me with my Pagan Mongols mod but he was busy with his other projects.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Mongol ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Creslin_black View Post
    And yeah, after using the pagan mod and inserting the files exactly where I was supposed to, I started the mod, and went to start a fresh Mongol campaign, and then lo and behold, it won't start. I click next after selecting that I want to play as the Golden Horde, and then it takes me back a screen. Any ideas why this is?
    That's very strange. That hasn't happened to me and no one else has reported it happening to them. You're aware that my mod isn't compatible with RR or SSTC, right?

  7. #7

    Default Re: Mongol ideas

    Are you intending to play the Mongols or play against them and want a challenge?

    How about allowing them to recruit experienced units right out of the buildings? For example, all their cavalry could come out with three silver chevrons, while all their infantry emerges with three bronze ones. Just change it in the EDB.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Mongol ideas

    Well, all of those things you said are fair enough I suppose, mostly just can't be changed. I could have sworn from my reading that the Golden Horde basically owned Russia and that the Ilkhanate owned most of Mesopotamia/The Middle East. I'd appreciate it btw if you or someone linked me the full Sands of the Gobi song, I can't find it except on youtube, and I'm not sure if that's just a tiny sample. Really love the music from Shogun: Total War, especially the Mongol Invasion. I would dig up the Mongol Invasion again out of the basement except that I remember that the campaign was really no challenge, and besides the current Medieval 2 affords so much more strategic and tactical complexity, I just wish that some of the artwork and music and visual style of Shogun could have remained with Medieval 2 somehow.

    I'm sorry to say that I don't have any skill or experience modding, only an idea of how it should be to play the Mongols. I just think that, despite the amazing amount people have been able to do with it, Medieval 2 is just too limiting and makes it too difficult to really make large changes in the game. It seems so amazing to me that there are NO games out there that center around the Mongols or that at least make the Mongol Empire a large part of the game (I'm aware of the Mongol Invasion expansion obviously, but I don't count that for my own reasons.)

    p.s. @dopp -

    I don't know what you mean by the EDB, I've never messed with that kind of stuff. I took a look in the export_descr_unit file and immediately gave up any thoughts of editing recruitment rates or stats for individual units, no search function or anything that I could see that would let me pinpoint mongol heavy horse archers for example and edit the unit stats.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Mongol ideas

    Recruitment is determined by two files. The first one is the unit entry in the export_descr_units (EDU). This sets the recruitment times and the cost/upkeep. Upkeep especially is important for Mongols because they have no economy to speak of initially. The second file is export_descr_buildings (EDB). This controls the stables, barracks etc. that allow you to recruit Mongol units. The recruitment replenishment rate, max number of units available for recruitment and the experience level of the recruited units can be controlled from here.

    SS 6.1 Mongols have five types of unique cavalry: Khan's Guard, Mongol Heavy Lancers, Mongol Light Lancers, Mongol Heavy Archers and Mongol Horse Archers. They have six types of unique infantry: Foot Archers, Mongol Infantry, Dismounted Archers, Dismounted Heavy Archers, Dismounted Heavy Lancers and Dismounted Light Lancers. The Foot Archers and Mongol Infantry are actually the vanilla versions of the Dismounted Archers and Dismounted Heavy Archers, I'm not sure why they are duplicated in SS (new models/skins maybe?). Mongols also have the rocket launcher, naffatun throwers and the bombard. They can also recruit generic Middle Eastern Spear Militia to represent local levies for police duties. That's about all the units they can recruit, I think.

    Not sure what you mean about there being no search function. Just hit CTRL-F in notepad or similar program to bring up the text search, then type in Mongol Horse Archers or whatever.

    I'm also not sure whether you can do away with Mongol infantry altogether. Pure cavalry armies require a great deal of player skill to use effectively and I don't know if the AI can handle that. Perhaps it is better to give them decent infantry representing the lands they have conquered, like the Korean spearmen and crossbowmen in Mongol Invasion.
    Last edited by dopp; August 20, 2008 at 01:09 AM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Mongol ideas

    I just don't understand why there has to be such a scarcity of variety for the Mongol units. The Mongol Empire, the greatest cavalry power the world has ever witnessed, get barely 6 cavalry unit types and of those only 2 are archer units, while any European faction probably gets more than that variety-wise. People might respond that there simply wasn't that much discernible variation in Mongol armies, but I don't think that's true, I think it's just a lack of imagination on the part of the game devs. Look at the Mangudai for example, elite suicide troops that I love watching in the movie Mongol. The movie's historical accuracy is questionable, yes, but it would still be an awesome unit to include.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Mongol ideas

    @ gewehr 36:

    Hmmm, well at first I stupidly overlooked the obvious connection between RR and Real Recruitment, so a bit of a 'duh! moment there. Well, now that I have both your submod and RR installed, none of the campaign factions will actually launch. Is there some way I can either uninstall your mod or uninstall the RR submod without uninstalling everything?

  12. #12

    Default Re: Mongol ideas

    Creslin_black
    i believe you have to uninstall (delete) SS and then reinstall
    "we're way way pre-alpha and what that means is there is loads of features not just in terms of the graphics but also in terms of the combat and animations that actually aren't in the game yet.So the final game is actually gonna look way way better than this!” - James Russell, CA
    Just like the elephant animation, this Carthage scenario is actually in the game, it just has a small percantage factor for showing up, that's all...

    Beware of scoundrels



  13. #13

    Default Re: Mongol ideas

    I have no issue with anything you've said except for the following:

    Quote Originally Posted by Creslin_black View Post
    Mongols had no use for levied peasants or spearmen or infantry of any kind, they were almost 100% cavalry/horse-archers.
    The Mongol armies were 100% cavalry, true -- but they were known for absorbing conquered troops into their own numbers, especially for use in direct siege attacks. From what I've read the troops had the choice to either be killed by the Mongols or attack the besieged city. You have to admit there's a certain sadistic psychological element in forcing defenders to throw rocks and/or boiling oil onto guys from a few towns over from them. So I don't think levied infantry is too far-fetched.

    I think in the game it would be great for the Mongols to have a custom building where levies of conquered factions could be recruited. The availability of certain troops would be conditional. For example, if the Mongols controlled Kazan, certain Cuman units would be available to recruit.
    Just a thought.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Mongol ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Creslin_black View Post
    but I don't think that's true, I think it's just a lack of imagination on the part of the game devs. Look at the Mangudai for example, elite suicide troops that I love watching in the movie Mongol. The movie's historical accuracy is questionable, yes, but it would still be an awesome unit to include.
    I love that movie too, and that's actually what inspired me to make the Pagan Mongols mod. When I talked to Caesar Clivus about making new units I actually had these guys in mind: (skip to 2:17)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHno62B6c7w

  15. #15

    Default Re: Mongol ideas

    hmm, well the pagan mod is nice so far, you were right I had to uninstall and then reinstall. Still've got to rebalance the recruitment times, I know everyone's afraid of letting the Mongols get too powerful but this is ridiculous, 4 turns for the ability to recruit a single unit of horse archers?

  16. #16

    Default Re: Mongol ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Creslin_black View Post
    hmm, well the pagan mod is nice so far, you were right I had to uninstall and then reinstall. Still've got to rebalance the recruitment times, I know everyone's afraid of letting the Mongols get too powerful but this is ridiculous, 4 turns for the ability to recruit a single unit of horse archers?
    What is the recruitment time for ,say, a Kievan horse archer unit?

  17. #17

    Default Re: Mongol ideas

    well I don't know about a Kievan Horse Archer, but I played the Cumans a bit and their horse archer recruitment times are just as ridiculous, 4 turns just to generate 1 unit available for recruitment from (I'm assuming) the stables. I suppose I'm not liking that very much about Stainless Steel in general. I mean, I can see what they're trying to do, but I just don't really like such a scarcity of units. I really just want to sweep down from the far eastern corner of the map with stacks of horse archers and eventually complete the conquest of Europe which Subotai and Batu never finished in real life.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Mongol ideas

    That's actually normal across the factions, most HA take between 4-6 turns to recruit if they are professionals, or 1 turn to recruit but ages to restock and cost a bomb to upkeep. Mongol units are not overpriced for what they do, although the simple lack of units in the Mongol roster means that they have no spammable unit types.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Mongol ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by dopp View Post
    although the simple lack of units in the Mongol roster means that they have no spammable unit types.
    I disagree with the last part. I've spammed a full stack of Mongol Heavy Archers and took out 3 full stacks of Khwarezmian mixed unit armies.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Mongol ideas

    gah I don't like that, I want faster recruitment times and such.

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