View Poll Results: Did they?

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  • Yep, they did.

    205 56.63%
  • Nope, they didn't.

    157 43.37%
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Thread: Russia saved our asses in WWII?

  1. #181

    Default Re: Russia saved our asses in WWII?

    [quote=Beren Erchamion;3576725]The difference is that Russia didn't fight to save Europe.[/qoute]

    Motive, whatever it was, does not mean that the USSR failled to save western arse, or that US different motive was superior in doing so either.

    They fought to dominate Europe. Did they give East Germany back to the Germans, or Poland back to the Polish, or Czechoslovakia back to the Czechs? No, they dominated those countries and forced them under the Iron Curtain.
    Well stalin was pretty clear that he required buffer zones to prevent any chance of further conflict, Russia had rearly started european wars in its history.

    What did the Americans do after we defeated the Germans? We gave France back to the French, and, as Colin Powell put it, we never asked for anything but enough land to bury our dead.
    It may bea cultural US thing, but the US secured for intself world domination in economic terms for its efforts, and an end to Uk and others colonial ambision and practice, oh and you were not shy in asking everyones to pay in gold for the LL, and when that ran out, clip on a nice % rate for the rest we owed. Not that i mind, it was after all that or extermination under the nazi system for me.

    I don't think the US music and drug culture is a whole lot different from modern Europe. And a citizenry that sits back while the government takes away its weapons is much more to be despised than one that refuses to give government that kind of power.
    Ok, we dont havea drug/music culture of our own, we have a US one is what i ment, the jamaician was a minor thing in the 50 and 60s.

    You dont seem to realise that the right to bear arms exist for a purpose, in the UK stsyem the Monarch can call on all englishmen to arm themselves and come to the aid of the crown, other than that its regulated by law, i can ask for alicience for a shotgun or firearm etc, and we gave this right to not shoot each other down at will in exchange for police and mil protection and system of checks and balances to be governed by laws that are just and equatable, in the USA you went with the governemnt cant be trusted and chose to acept the 17000 dead a year that fredom cost you, compared toi under 300 in the UK for all gun crimes casualtys, in europe when 17000 die, we call it a war, in the US its the price of fredom and gun conytrol and frankly, any governmemnt that cannot control its people any better has rathera lot of problems, just like the Uk did with the Scots when we abolished the right to bear arms as they hada habit of killing englishmen with them for past grievences rather tha use the courts system.

    I remind you of Justcie Jackson, it not for the citizenry to fear the governmnet, it is for the governement to fear the citizenry, could use him on the USSC at presnt methinks.

  2. #182
    BritPatriot1815's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: Russia saved our asses in WWII?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beren Erchamion View Post
    No the Russians didn't save your butts, the Americans did. And after we saved your butts from the Germans TWICE, we saved them from the Soviets as well. But of course most modern enlightened Europeans have such contempt for American culture and values that they'd never admit it. No, the commie Soviets obviously could have done it without us. That's ridiculous. Learn your history, kids.

    And where was Europe when America's butt needed some saving? Except for Britain, no European nation has contributed to the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan on anything like the scale that the Americans have. So maybe instead of looking down its collective nose at the USA, Europe ought to do some soul-searching of its own.
    The First World War it was over before your arrvived, you were apparently needless we and the frogs were forcing them back into Germany, as for the Second World War we would need you for the Pacific War but I personaly think that we, USSR and even the French could do it on our own. The Soviets were becoming a much stronger army, their navy had a good reputation and with the Royal Navy THE BEST IN THE WORLD we would mince the Japs up, any way the Germans, French, Austrians, Ities, Spain and Russia are in Iraq & Afganistan now just not in the numbers we have there and Europeans do respect American culture
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  3. #183
    Erebus Pasha's Avatar vezir-i âzam
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    Default Re: Russia saved our asses in WWII?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beren Erchamion View Post
    No the Russians didn't save your butts, the Americans did. And after we saved your butts from the Germans TWICE, we saved them from the Soviets as well. But of course most modern enlightened Europeans have such contempt for American culture and values that they'd never admit it. No, the commie Soviets obviously could have done it without us. That's ridiculous. Learn your history, kids.
    Hmmm US contribution in WW1 was minor in comparison to their contribution in WW2. They played their part in the Allied Summer Offensives of 1918 but they had to be equipped with French and British weaponry to be able to play a effective role on the Western Front. They came to grips with trench warfare quickly, but to say that in the 1914-18 war that the US saved 'our' butt is just pure revisionist history. It was British/Commonwealth, French and Belgian blood that was spent in forcing back the Germans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beren Erchamion View Post
    And where was Europe when America's butt needed some saving? Except for Britain, no European nation has contributed to the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan on anything like the scale that the Americans have. So maybe instead of looking down its collective nose at the USA, Europe ought to do some soul-searching of its own.
    Fair enough about contributions to Iraq and Afghanistan but when has America's butt needed saving. Unlike mainland Europe your country hasn't suffered death and destruction through war since the ACW and that pales in comparison to WW1 and WW2. The closest the US has come since then was the attack by Japan on Pearl Harbour.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beren Erchamion View Post
    The difference is that Russia didn't fight to save Europe. They fought to dominate Europe. Did they give East Germany back to the Germans, or Poland back to the Polish, or Czechoslovakia back to the Czechs? No, they dominated those countries and forced them under the Iron Curtain. What did the Americans do after we defeated the Germans? We gave France back to the French, and, as Colin Powell put it, we never asked for anything but enough land to bury our dead.
    Soviet Russia has undoubtedly at times dreamed of spreading Communism westward but do you think they had European domination on their minds when the Germans invaded in 1941? I also smiled when you stated that 'we gave France back to the French' like it was yours to give in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beren Erchamion View Post
    I don't think the US music and drug culture is a whole lot different from modern Europe. And a citizenry that sits back while the government takes away its weapons is much more to be despised than one that refuses to give government that kind of power.
    You really don't know what you're on about here. Having a weapon doesn't make you a big man.

    Quote Originally Posted by BritPatriot1815 View Post
    The First World War it was over before your arrvived, you were apparently needless we and the frogs were forcing them back into Germany, as for the Second World War we would need you for the Pacific War but I personaly think that we, USSR and even the French could do it on our own. The Soviets were becoming a much stronger army, their navy had a good reputation and with the Royal Navy THE BEST IN THE WORLD we would mince the Japs up, any way the Germans, French, Austrians, Ities, Spain and Russia are in Iraq & Afganistan now just not in the numbers we have there and Europeans do respect American culture
    In WW2 we couldn't have launched an invasion on mainland Europe without the US. To think otherwise is just wishful thinking. We just didn't have the manpower. As for the Royal Navy - it was still powerful but by this time the US Navy had overtaken it and in the Far East the navy was very much on the back foot until 1944, and even then it was very much a Commonwealth Fleet with Australia and New Zealand contributing.
    Last edited by Erebus Pasha; August 27, 2008 at 10:32 AM.

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  4. #184

    Default Re: Russia saved our asses in WWII?

    Quote Originally Posted by BritPatriot1815 View Post
    When the AMERICAN GOVERNMENT started the Cold War to end Communism, the Ivans didn't want to get into any competition with the US, they knew they weren't strong enough after NATO was formed in order to keep up (Russians don't like losing you see) they formed the Warsaw Pact, if there was a time line of the military iventions Cold War, the Russians would be a few steps behind, trying to keep up, I have nothing against America but you drove them into being bankrupt trying to save themselves from humuliation.
    We drove them into being bankrupt trying to save the world from nuclear war. I don't frankly care about Russian self-esteem. I'm glad the Cold War went the way it did, and thanks to leaders like Reagan and Thatcher it was much shorter and less deadly than it could have been.

    Quote Originally Posted by BritPatriot1815 View Post
    As for the countries which were part of the Warsaw Pact they thought that Communism was a good Idea and joined or they liked the Ivans for liberating them
    Yes, and that was foolish of them, not that they really had much of a choice. But most Eastern European countries have totally repudiated communism and are enthusiastically pro-American--more so than several Western European countries I could mention.
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  5. #185
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    Default Re: Russia saved our asses in WWII?

    Quote Originally Posted by Erebus26 View Post
    In WW2 we couldn't have launched an invasion on mainland Europe without the US. To think otherwise is just wishful thinking. We just didn't have the manpower. As for the Royal Navy - it was still powerful but by this time the US Navy had overtaken it and in the Far East the navy was very much on the back foot until 1944.
    Don't forget that the Germans were sending their more experienced soldiers from France to Russia & replacing them with conscripts at some time there wouldn't be enough experienced soldiers capable of holding back a Commonwealth invasion
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  6. #186
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    Default Re: Russia saved our asses in WWII?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beren Erchamion View Post
    We drove them into being bankrupt trying to save the world from nuclear war. I don't frankly care about Russian self-esteem. I'm glad the Cold War went the way it did, and thanks to leaders like Reagan and Thatcher it was much shorter and less deadly than it could have been.



    Yes, and that was foolish of them, not that they really had much of a choice. But most Eastern European countries have totally repudiated communism and are enthusiastically pro-American--more so than several Western European countries I could mention.
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  7. #187
    Erebus Pasha's Avatar vezir-i âzam
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    Default Re: Russia saved our asses in WWII?

    Quote Originally Posted by BritPatriot1815 View Post
    Don't forget that the Germans were sending their more experienced soldiers from France to Russia & replacing them with conscripts at some time there wouldn't be enough experienced soldiers capable of holding back a Commonwealth invasion
    Well it wasn't a doddle even with American help so I don't see how a Commonwealth only invasion would've gone any better.

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  8. #188
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    Default Re: Russia saved our asses in WWII?

    OK then
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  9. #189
    Legio XII's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Russia saved our asses in WWII?

    Quote Originally Posted by BritPatriot1815 View Post
    When the AMERICAN GOVERNMENT started the Cold War to end Communism, the Ivans didn't want to get into any competition with the US, they knew they weren't strong enough after NATO was formed in order to keep up (Russians don't like losing you see) they formed the Warsaw Pact, if there was a time line of the military iventions Cold War, the Russians would be a few steps behind, trying to keep up, I have nothing against America but you drove them into being bankrupt trying to save themselves from humuliation. As for the countries which were part of the Warsaw Pact they thought that Communism was a good Idea and joined or they liked the Ivans for liberating them
    Ok, I was fine with most of what you were saying until you went and blamed the Cold War entirely on America, which is a patently false accusation. The Cold War began as the American attempt to contain Communism (this is also known as the Truman Doctrine.). The key word is contain, which means to control the expansion of the Soviet Union and communism, not to destroy it. It was the communist forces who were on the offensive, not the Americans (do the Korean, Vietnam, and Afghani Wars ring a bell?)

    Yes, America was antagonistic towards the USSR, but why would it not be, watching Soviet troops set up camp across Eastern Europe, deporting millions of people to gulags, and supporting communist rebellions across the globe? While America was hardly conciliatory or amiable towards the USSR after WWII, it hardly had reason to be. The USSR was not the victim here. Both powers were distrustful of the other, and for good reason.

    By the way, how about putting some facts into your posts? This, of course, being opposed to propaganda and rather dubious postulating, which you seem to enjoy.

    Cheers

    Quote Originally Posted by BritPatriot1815 View Post
    The First World War it was over before your arrvived, you were apparently needless we and the frogs were forcing them back into Germany, as for the Second World War we would need you for the Pacific War but I personaly think that we, USSR and even the French could do it on our own. The Soviets were becoming a much stronger army, their navy had a good reputation and with the Royal Navy THE BEST IN THE WORLD we would mince the Japs up, any way the Germans, French, Austrians, Ities, Spain and Russia are in Iraq & Afganistan now just not in the numbers we have there and Europeans do respect American culture

    Ok, I give you the point about the First World War. We got there just in time for Germany to crack. But as for WWII, you have a little learning and thinking to do. First, why the hell do you include the French? I will not go on a French-bashing spree here, since they did fight quite bravely (and might have held on had the BEF held its position on the left flank instead of hightailing it to Dunkirk), but the fact stands that as a major military player in WWII they were knocked out rather early. Now, as for the USSR, you seem to forget that a significant amount of weapons and materiel were supplied to the USSR through Lend Lease. In 2007 dollars, the USSR GDP in 1941 was 359 billion dollars. The US, in 2007 dollars, contributed nearly 158 billion dollars in Lend-Lease aid. So, nearly 31% of Soviet materiel were supplied in 1941 by the US. (Don't ask for later dates, the percentage America contributes only goes up.) And you want to claim that they were becoming capable on their own? Come now, do not make me laugh. They may have very well fought tooth and nail and sacrificed a great deal more than any other power, but a significant amount of what they fought with was bought with American loans.

    And as for the thing about their navy having a strong reputation, once again your generalizations are not supported by the facts. The Russian Pacific fleet was sitting the war out, and the Baltic Fleet war cooped up in the harbor in Leningrad for the better part of the war, at least the part of it that survived the retreat from Riga to Leningrad. In addition, nearly half of the sailors in the Baltic Fleet were sent ashore in Leningrad to bolster the cities defenses. Hardly a good reputation.

    As for the Royal Navy mincing the Japanese up, again a rather idealistic and nostalgic statement. You should remember that the Royal navy got a royal ass-kicking at the hands of the Japanese Navy, and the Royal Navy in the Atlantic was rather hard pressed to defend against the U-boat threat until America contributed an initial thirty destroyers in 1941, and later more than 200, plus escort carriers, plus cruisers, plus merchant ships to replace the hundreds sunk by the U-boats.
    Last edited by Legio XII; August 27, 2008 at 11:07 AM.

  10. #190

    Default Re: Russia saved our asses in WWII?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beren Erchamion View Post
    No the Russians didn't save your butts, the Americans did. And after we saved your butts from the Germans TWICE, we saved them from the Soviets as well. But of course most modern enlightened Europeans have such contempt for American culture and values that they'd never admit it. No, the commie Soviets obviously could have done it without us. That's ridiculous. Learn your history, kids.
    Wait, you think you saved us in World War I? That's worthy of a right-wing radio talk-show host. Or are you exercising self-parody? I honestly can't tell.
    'When people stop believing in God, they don’t believe in nothing — they believe in anything. '

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  11. #191

    Default Re: Russia saved our asses in WWII?

    Quote Originally Posted by Erebus26 View Post
    Hmmm US contribution in WW1 was minor in comparison to their contribution in WW2. They played their part in the Allied Summer Offensives of 1918 but they had to be equipped with French and British weaponry to be able to play a effective role on the Western Front. They came to grips with trench warfare quickly, but to say that in the 1914-18 war that the US saved 'our' butt is just pure revisionist history. It was British/Commonwealth, French and Belgian blood that was spent in forcing back the Germans.
    No it's not revisionist. The Allies and Central Powers would have sat in those trenches for another decade had not the USA provided the necessary manpower to defeat the Germans decisively.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erebus26 View Post
    Fair enough about contributions to Iraq and Afghanistan but when has America's butt needed saving. Unlike mainland Europe your country hasn't suffered death and destruction through war since the ACW and that pales in comparison to WW1 and WW2. The closest the US has come since then was the attack by Japan on Pearl Harbour.
    America's butt never needed saving; that was a bit of exaggeration for effect. But heck, we could still use some help from our "allies" when we go to war.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erebus26 View Post
    Soviet Russia has undoubtedly at times dreamed of spreading Communism westward but do you think they had European domination on their minds when the Germans invaded in 1941? I also smiled when you stated that 'we gave France back to the French' like it was yours to give in the first place.
    I fully acknowledge the heroism of Russian soldiers in defense of their country. Certainly in 1941 their chief concern was to defend their own land. But once they had done that and were ready to counterattack into Germany, their purpose was no longer defense but domination, as evidenced by their behavior after the war.

    And land that American soldiers have fought and died for is America's to keep and do with as she pleases. We would have been right to keep Japan for our own, but we didn't. We would also have been perfectly justified in annexing parts of Germany and other Axis countries. Instead, we rebuilt them and gave them back to their people. Admittedly France was not rightly ours to keep, since they were our ally in the war. But the fact was, we had the power to keep it if we wanted to. We did not choose to exercise that power. Instead we did what was right, and allowed our French allies to keep their own country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erebus26 View Post
    You really don't know what you're on about here. Having a weapon doesn't make you a big man.
    No, but it makes you a free man if you're willing to use it when necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Wait, you think you saved us in World War I? That's worthy of a right-wing radio talk-show host.
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  12. #192

    Default Re: Russia saved our asses in WWII?

    Is it true that most english people love America?
    I was watching European Vacation.

    I think The U.S. played a bigger role than Russia. U.S. did a lot of damage to the Italians. So did the British. Couldn't have done it without U.S. help. Face the fact Europe would be speaking German id America didn't go to Europe. Thing is America did not want to go to Europe. We wanted to attack Japan. Churchill persuaded us to go to Europe. Proven fact that Hitler did not want to be attacked by the Americans. They screwed that up when they asked Mexico for help.
    Got nothing...

  13. #193
    BritPatriot1815's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: Russia saved our asses in WWII?

    Hey Legio XII, we were at the side lines watching you two squable like kids, we saw what was happening, i wasn't blaming the US for starting the war intentionaly ok it was either you or them, turned out it was you, FACT 1

    There's a Soviet document in Moscow stating that they must not get into any sort of conflict with America check your self, FACT 2

    Sending people to Gulags that propoganda, this only happened during the time of Stalin, FACT 3

    You interviened with every war which involved Communists and declared war on them, North Korea, North Vietnam, China e.t.c, so much for "containing", FACT 4
    Last edited by BritPatriot1815; August 27, 2008 at 10:55 AM.
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  14. #194

    Default Re: Russia saved our asses in WWII?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beren Erchamion View Post
    We drove them into being bankrupt trying to save the world from nuclear war.

    .
    Does that include when Truman stopped and turned around around a million tons of LL to the USSR in early 45, and started the cold war, of course the USSR telling the US its tech experts that it had would not be comming back after the war was kinda a problem.

    I guess i understand the Cold war started during the run down of WW2, rather than later.

  15. #195

    Default Re: Russia saved our asses in WWII?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beren Erchamion View Post
    No it's not revisionist. The Allies and Central Powers would have sat in those trenches for another decade had not the USA provided the necessary manpower to defeat the Germans decisively.



    America's butt never needed saving; that was a bit of exaggeration for effect. But heck, we could still use some help from our "allies" when we go to war.

    Aye, The U.S. were the best sharp shooters in WW1. The french and U.K. all looked in amazement how great our men were.

    America never needed its butt saved and never will tell like all of ME come together and attack America. Only smart people will know that no one can defeat our army now.
    Got nothing...

  16. #196
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    Default Re: Russia saved our asses in WWII?

    Quote Originally Posted by pericles_plato View Post
    Is it true that most english people love America?
    I was watching European Vacation.

    I think The U.S. played a bigger role than Russia. U.S. did a lot of damage to the Italians. So did the British. Couldn't have done it without U.S. help. Face the fact Europe would be speaking German id America didn't go to Europe. Thing is America did not want to go to Europe. We wanted to attack Japan. Churchill persuaded us to go to Europe. Proven fact that Hitler did not want to be attacked by the Americans. They screwed that up when they asked Mexico for help.
    I wouldn't say love mate
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  17. #197

    Default Re: Russia saved our asses in WWII?

    Quote Originally Posted by pericles_plato View Post
    Is it true that most english people love America?
    I was watching European Vacation.

    I think The U.S. played a bigger role than Russia. U.S. did a lot of damage to the Italians. So did the British. Couldn't have done it without U.S. help. Face the fact Europe would be speaking German id America didn't go to Europe. Thing is America did not want to go to Europe. We wanted to attack Japan. Churchill persuaded us to go to Europe. Proven fact that Hitler did not want to be attacked by the Americans. They screwed that up when they asked Mexico for help.
    Hitler declared war on the USA shortly after we declared war on Japan. That was the dumbest thing Hitler ever did. His other really dumb mistake was breaking the Nazi-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact. That got him into a 2-front war, and assured his defeat.

    The cold war was not started by Truman. It was the fault of the Soviets, and the Americans were trying to halt their aggression. We had nothing against the Russians until they became a bunch of warmongering commies.
    Last edited by Shi Huangdi; August 27, 2008 at 10:58 AM.
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  18. #198
    BritPatriot1815's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: Russia saved our asses in WWII?

    [quote=Beren Erchamion;3577081]And land that American soldiers have fought and died for is America's to keep and do with as she pleases.quote]

    Didn't get Vietnam now did ya, and you ain't gettin Iraq inall. Sorry I don't like Imperialists and thats Imperialist
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  19. #199

    Default Re: Russia saved our asses in WWII?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beren Erchamion View Post
    No it's not revisionist. The Allies and Central Powers would have sat in those trenches for another decade had not the USA provided the necessary manpower to defeat the Germans decisively.
    Utter utter nationalistic nonsense. Please provide a historical source to back that claim up. The British and French were utilising tanks in large numbers by 1917 to which the Germans had few effective counters, combined with the expenditure of Germany's reserves in the spring offensive. These were critical factors. Were the Americans critical at Amiens? The second battle of the Somme?

    America's contribution simply made it easier, and saved allied lives. It was not fundamental to the allied war effort, and it's absence would certainly have not meant we would have to sit trenches for another decade, which is frankly laughable. Honestly, have you read any history?
    'When people stop believing in God, they don’t believe in nothing — they believe in anything. '

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  20. #200
    Erebus Pasha's Avatar vezir-i âzam
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    Default Re: Russia saved our asses in WWII?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beren Erchamion View Post
    No it's not revisionist. The Allies and Central Powers would have sat in those trenches for another decade had not the USA provided the necessary manpower to defeat the Germans decisively.
    Utter rubbish. The US on it's own did not decisively defeat the Germans in the summer offensives in 1918. The French and the British Commonwealth played far bigger roles.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beren Erchamion View Post
    America's butt never needed saving; that was a bit of exaggeration for effect. But heck, we could still use some help from our "allies" when we go to war.
    I think the likes of Britain, Canada and Australia have served you well enough.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beren Erchamion View Post
    I fully acknowledge the heroism of Russian soldiers in defense of their country. Certainly in 1941 their chief concern was to defend their own land. But once they had done that and were ready to counterattack into Germany, their purpose was no longer defense but domination, as evidenced by their behavior after the war.
    Their purpose was the destruction of Nazi Germany first and foremost.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beren Erchamion View Post
    And land that American soldiers have fought and died for is America's to keep and do with as she pleases. We would have been right to keep Japan for our own, but we didn't. We would also have been perfectly justified in annexing parts of Germany and other Axis countries. Instead, we rebuilt them and gave them back to their people. Admittedly France was not rightly ours to keep, since they were our ally in the war. But the fact was, we had the power to keep it if we wanted to. We did not choose to exercise that power. Instead we did what was right, and allowed our French allies to keep their own country.
    Oh you are a funny chap!


    Quote Originally Posted by Beren Erchamion View Post
    No, but it makes you a free man if you're willing to use it when necessary.
    Until you get shot by another free man who has a bigger gun.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beren Erchamion View Post
    Yes actually there are a few patriots left who still know history and who still believe in American greatness.
    There is nothing wrong with being proud of your country but don't go too overboard son.
    Last edited by Erebus Pasha; August 27, 2008 at 11:06 AM.

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