Poll: Devotio Iberian Warriors

[Suppanut]

According to "The post marian project" Thread, I think it quite sure that "Devotio Iberian Warriors" would be name for 2 turn recruitment 5th tier elite disciplined infantry for Spain. But there are still not sure how should it look like. Currently there are 2 choice

Version 1: Armed with AP falcata, large caetra, and pilum.(AP to made them much different from Councils Guards which also with long sword) They are fight like upgrade version of Ambakaro as shock infantry.

Pros: Very effective and very historic Iberian.
Cons: Similar with Gallic's Council Guards. Similar as upgrade version of Scutarii, Heavy Scutarii, and Ambakaro. Similar to legionary as well as other clone.

Iberian's Devotio Iberian Warriors; Barrack LV5&Marian reform(Elite, heavier, and more disciplined version of the Ambakaro. Equiped with a falcata, pilum, large caetra, and Iberian's chain mail. along with barbarian fighting spirit as well as civilized iron disciplined. They are counterpart to Gallic's Council Guards, Germans' Hearth Troops and Thrace's Thracian Hoplites in their disciplined role and training)(spain)

{devotio_iberian_warriors} Devotio Iberian Warriors

{devotio_iberian_warriors_descr}
Among the Iberians, the Devotio Iberian Warriors are warriors who to fight till death for the leader through a loyalty sacred pact, a 'devotio iberica', and this does not end at death, as they remain linked even after his demise.

\n\nDevotio Iberian Warriors are flexible but heavy and disciplined shock infantry with equipment that best quality those Iberian and Celtiberian combine, which are the best in Mediterranean world as Iberian Paninsular is at apex of Mediterranean world in term of metalworks. They wear iron mail with some scale reinforced in crucial part and greaves. They carry a large caetra and very deadly with falcata in their hand as they could crush shield and armour with it. Each man also carries a number of iron-tipped javelins which will frequently pierce armour. Their main duty is to hold the battle line with iron disciplined and crush it.

\n\nHistorically, Iberian people are not just mare barbarians as they have extensive contacted with other people of mediterranean, Celts, greeks, punic, and romans. They like to take foreign knowledges and techniques to develop their own in various degree. Iberian of the south and east are much of civilized influence while people of the north and west tend to have more celtic influence. Both groups are have very intensive contact and exchange their culture which created a lot of unique products for all they so called Iberian peoples.

{devotio_iberian_warriors_descr_short}
Devotio Iberian Warriors are elite warriors who tie with a loyalty sacred pact, a 'devotio iberica', to fight and die for their leader for eternity.

type             devotio iberian warriors
dictionary       devotio_iberian_warriors    ; Devotio Iberian Warriors
category         infantry
class            heavy
voice_type       Medium_1
soldier          devotio_iberian_warrior, 50, 0, 2.0
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy, warcry
formation        1, 1.66, 2, 3.33, 5, square
stat_health      1, 0
stat_pri         13, 5, pilum, 35, 2, thrown, blade, piercing, spear, 25 ,0.8  ; Ranged
stat_pri_attr    prec, thrown ap
stat_sec         9, 5, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 25 ,0.8  ; Falcata
stat_sec_attr    ap	; Elite Falcata
stat_pri_armour  10, 10, 5, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 1, flesh
stat_heat        1
stat_ground      2, 1, 0, -1
stat_mental      16, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 35
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        2, 1200, 600, 200, 400, 1200
ownership        spain

or...

Version 2: Armed with heavy spear, scutum, and pilum with shield wall. They are fight mainly as line holder and secondary as shock infantry like what they are in "Rome:Total Realism".

Pros: Much different from their same tier counterparts. Their style are from EB and RTR.
Cons: Spain already have 3 spear units(2 spearmen and 1 hoplites) in this submod and quite similar(as upgrade version) of one of them(Lusitanian Heavy Spearmen).

Iberian's Devotio Iberian Warriors; Barrack LV5&Marian reform(Elite and Heavier version of Lusitanian Heavy Spearmen. Equiped with finest spear, pilum, Scutum, and Iberian's armour along with barbarian fighting spirit as well as civilized iron disciplined. They are counterpart to Gallic's Council Guards, Germans' Hearth Troops and Thrace's Thracian Hoplites in their disciplined role and training)(spain)

{devotio_iberian_warriors} Devotio Iberian Warriors

{devotio_iberian_warriors_descr}
Among the Iberians, the Devotio Iberian Warriors are warriors who to fight till death for the leader through a loyalty sacred pact, a 'devotio iberica', and this does not end at death, as they remain linked even after his demise.

\n\nDevotio Iberian Warriors are flexible but heavy and disciplined line infantry with equipment that best quality those Iberian and Celtiberian combine, which are the best in Mediterranean world as Iberian Paninsular is at apex of Mediterranean world in term of metalworks. They wear iron mail with some scale reinforced in crucial part and greaves, and they carry large scutum and long spears. In addition, each man carries a number of iron-tipped javelins which will frequently pierce armour. Their main duty is to hold the battle line with iron disciplined and crush it when it is needed.

\n\nHistorically, Iberian people are not just mare barbarians as they have extensive contacted with other people of mediterranean, Celts, greeks, punic, and romans. They like to take foreign knowledges and techniques to develop their own in various degree. Iberian of the south and east are much of civilized influence while people of the north and west tend to have more celtic influence. Both groups are have very intensive contact and exchange their culture which created a lot of unique products for all they so called Iberian peoples.

{devotio_iberian_warriors_descr_short}
Iberian Elite Spearmen are flexible but heavy and disciplined infantry with equipment which are the best in Mediterranean world.

type             devotio iberian warriors
dictionary       devotio_iberian_warriors    ; Devotio Iberian Warriors
category         infantry
class            heavy
voice_type       Medium_1
soldier          devotio_iberian_warrior, 50, 0, 2.2
mount_effect     horse +2, camel +2
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy, warcry
formation        1, 1, 2, 2, 5, square, shield_wall
stat_health      1, 0
stat_pri         13, 4, pilum, 35, 2, thrown, blade, piercing, spear, 25 ,0.8  ; Ranged
stat_pri_attr    prec, thrown ap
stat_sec         8, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 25 ,0.8  ; Elite Spear
stat_sec_attr    light_spear, spear_bonus_6
stat_pri_armour  10, 10, 5, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        3
stat_ground      2, 1, 0, -1
stat_mental      16, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 35
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        2, 1200, 600, 200, 400, 1200
ownership        spain

Please cast your vote and give your opinion.

[Archbaker]

Isn't version one fairly similar to the Celtiberian unit? On the other hand, there is a lot of scutum units already in the game.

[Suppanut]

Then are they have other shields choice for Spain other than caetra, scutum, and long shield? Perhap should we give long shield to them instead?

On similarity of version 1, Cetiberian swordmen use normal javelin but version 1 use pilum which different in range, damage, and amount they carried. Although they both thrown before charge.

On similarity of version 2, Lusitanian Heavy Spearmen use heavy javelin which somewhere between pilum and normal javelin.

[Stilgar CG]

That's a tought one. I would go for diversity within a faction. So, falcata guys for me. After all, Iberians were decent swordsmen. So, they deserve an elite sword unit. Perhaps, they could receive less ammo (2-3) and better attack/defence/shield in return (it depends on what Iberians need most late in the game).

[Doppelganger]

My vote goes to the first one, despite I can't vote

One more suggestion, remove the roman reference in the description, iberian people had their own military tradition, and this devoted warrior it's just an improvement combining celtiberian and iberian armament.

[Suppanut]

Doppelganger: Description have been change as now they no longer have roman reference as you wish.

[Zarax]

Iberians could use an AP unit.

[Archbaker]

Iberians could use an AP unit.

So far, only Asturian Wildmen use axes. It seems axes were only common in the very north of the peninsula, however, so it seems wrong to give axes to most standard Iberian units. We could give axes to the Cantabrian Cavalry as the Cantabrians were known to use the same bipinnis axe as the Asturians.

[Suppanut]

Devotio don't carried axe. They carried falcata which could function as half-sword/axe in hand of the elites who could use it well.

[Archbaker]

I was talking about the northern units Cantabrians Cavalry and Asturian Wildmen. The Cantabrians and Asturians likely used double-headed axes although they were mostly light troops.

Whether the falcata should be AP is mostly a matter of taste. It was certainly axe-like in that it could strike with much more weight than the gladius. In fact I have seen the kukri, a knife that is somewhat smaller than the falcata, used to chop wood.
Personally, however, I think Iberia will have too many ap units if every falcata unit is given ap.

The falcata varied a fair bit in terms of width and curvature, so there was probably also a lot of variation in the amount of striking force it delivered. I tend to think it was more sword than axe, to keep your analogy, but it can go either way.

The sheer amount of falcata-like weapons throughout history, longsaxes, falchions, khopeshes, &c, &c, suggests that the design was a sound one, but the fact that it never became the dominant weapon type in a region suggests that it wasn't the best weapon for general use.

[Suppanut]

Only Devotio will get ap for a time being as they are elite with Falcata but other units with falcata will not have ap because they are not skill enough except Ambakaro which worth to consider.

I'm quite sure that both Cantabrian and Asturian will have axe to fight melee in released.

[Archbaker]

Maybe, for the sake of the WYSIWYG principle, we could give the devotio warriors falcatas with a wider blade or a bigger curve than the ones used by other falcata troops? This would not be ahistorical as there are many designs of falcata.

[Suppanut]

Good idea, Archbaker, I will inform Maraxus about it.

[Doppelganger]

I was talking about the northern units Cantabrians Cavalry and Asturian Wildmen. The Cantabrians and Asturians likely used double-headed axes although they were mostly light troops.

Whether the falcata should be AP is mostly a matter of taste. It was certainly axe-like in that it could strike with much more weight than the gladius. In fact I have seen the kukri, a knife that is somewhat smaller than the falcata, used to chop wood.
Personally, however, I think Iberia will have too many ap units if every falcata unit is given ap.

The falcata varied a fair bit in terms of width and curvature, so there was probably also a lot of variation in the amount of striking force it delivered. I tend to think it was more sword than axe, to keep your analogy, but it can go either way.

The sheer amount of falcata-like weapons throughout history, longsaxes, falchions, khopeshes, &c, &c, suggests that the design was a sound one, but the fact that it never became the dominant weapon type in a region suggests that it wasn't the best weapon for general use.

In fact falcata become the dominant sword in the iberian side of the peninsula, from the s V bc to the roman conquest. About the lenght , weight and curvature, modern theories indicates that each falcata was forged taking the lenght of the owner's forearm.

[Archbaker]

Point well taken, but I meant in the world, not just in Iberia.

If you will allow me to speculate a little, the falcata shape seems to be one of the oldest designs of sword, and it was probably easier to make than the straight sword, but straight swords did eventually become the norm until some time after the Middle Ages where lightly curved sabre-style weapons took over.

It might have been easier to forge curved swords. The falchion could apparently be forged from metal of lower quality than the straight mediaeval sword.

Another virtue of the short curved sword was that it took up less space and was easier to carry than a longer weapon, making it ideal as a back-up. We can be fairly certain that this was a major reason for the popularity of the sax.

I certainly do not intend to underestimate the falcata in any way, but I very much imagine it was primarily a sturdy and effective weapon to fall back on after using a spear or javelin.